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2007 Ford e150 4.6L - Hard Starts, Random Shutdowns

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19 May 2018 11:22 - 19 May 2018 20:13 #20869 by Loachuck
FINALLY found a discussion very similar to what I have been experiencing for over a year - (one point specifically - my situation goes FAR beyond this) the difficulty starting the vehicle after sitting overnight as described by hans.andersen 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only, post #8940 on 4/23/17

Very sorry the thread ended so abruptly with no reported resolution.

Hoping to get some help here as I'm at my wits end with this truck - experiencing random/intermittent stalls and forced engine shutdowns. No real pattern on when it occurs, sometimes it does it's thing on first startup, other times not. The truck runs smooth as silk when it's NOT stalling. When it does stall/shutdown, I turn the key off & start back up - sometimes it returns to normal right away, sometimes it takes 3 or 4 cycles of key on off cycles. Thankfully, moving the gear selector to neutral and key off & restarting while moving is possible.

I have an Autel Diaglink Code Reader scan tool, the Ford service manuals AND the PC/ED loaded onto a laptop.

I have replaced a ton of parts through this process, which I don't mind so much because they're mostly all parts I would be replacing eventually anyway (I purchased this vehicle used 14 months ago). Seems to be fuel delivery related, but could realistically be ANYTHING. Here's the list of items replaced so far - Spark Plugs, Coil Packs, Air & Fuel Filters, PCM, EGR Valve, MAF, All 4 O2 Sensors, Alternator, Serpentine Belt, Pulley & Tensioner Assembly, Fuel Pump, Battery, throttle body complete assembly, fuel injectors, accelerator pedal, fuel rail pressure/temp sensor, FPDM, CMP, CKP, IFS. Many of these parts were as a result of what I would consider "phantom DTCs" as none of the parts have solved the problem.

I'm sure this is going to be something completely ridiculous and simple - IF and when it's ever resolved! The most common DTCs that appear after shutdowns are as follows: P0600, P061B, P2105, P2107 and of course, many instances of O2 sensor rich, lean, stuck codes.
The P0600 points directly to a bad PCM which is the first thing I replaced when this first started a year ago. Since then, I have swapped the old with the new several times to no avail, resulting in the same behavior more or less each time - the truck seems to like the original PCM better than the newer, updated calibration PCM.

I live in a remote area so the truck doesn't get driven a lot. This doesn't help because every time I clear the codes, it takes forever for the PCM to re-learn - this is a patience issue and I'm just about out of it!!!

Have checked and re-attached the main grounds, checked fuses, relays and circuits and have yet to find anything that makes any difference. Have just recently found the fuel pressure mechanically tested low compared to the fuel pressure reported by the FPTS on the rail, which would make sense because when the vehicle does it's thing, it does seem to be starving for fuel. Well, replaced the FPTS and got excited when I just happened to reset the IFS and observed the fuel pressure to be MUCH more stable and responsive - it runs absolutely perfect and better than ever as a result of the replacement of all these parts. However, upon taking the next test drive, to my disappointment, the same engine shutdown behavior happened again (with the IFS circuit jumped). One other item of note - occasionally the shutdown will be preceded by the transmission being totally disengaged. All of this behavior goes away after one (usually, sometimes 2 or 3) off/on key cycles.

I've spent a lot of time studying/learning the wiring diagrams and checking electrical connections, fuses, relays, ripping apart the wiring harness, etc. One thing I don't understand is the amp draw into the BJB, normal with no extras running, is under 10 amps. The puzzling part of this is the PCM relay (which is rated at 40 amps continuous) is only pulling 5 to 5.5 amps and the relay gets quite warm after a bit, bordering on hot after a while - have measured up to 125 degrees on it. It doesn't make sense to me that a relay rated for 40 amps continuous can get that hot w/5 amps of draw - just my humble opinion and the reason for the time I've spent so much time checking wiring.

Never experienced anything like this in my life, and is very stressful because the random, unexpected shutdowns are potentially very dangerous out in traffic. I'm not holding out much hope this can be resolved, but I am still hopeful - there's GOT to be a solution!!

Any help at all will be greatly appreciated.
Last edit: 19 May 2018 20:13 by Loachuck.

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19 May 2018 19:09 #20877 by Tyler
Another Econoline with this issue! :lol: I was trying to help hans.andersen out last year, and didn't get far. Link for that post you found below. Speaking of, thanks for using the search feature. :cheer:

www.scannerdanner.com/forum/post-your-re...p061b-only.html#8940

Do you happen to have the freeze frame data for the last time any of those codes set? I have a theory going based on the last thread that a misreporting MAF can cause the PCM's torque calculation to freak out and kill the show. It can also cause insufficient fueling during cranking, as Ford is one of those makes that puts weight on the MAF for calculating cranking fuel injector pulse width.

I saw you changed the MAF and the air filter, but I'm thinking about issues in the air ducting that can cause an airflow issue over the sensor. It's weak, I know, but it's the best I've got for you at this point. :blush: :silly:

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19 May 2018 19:26 - 19 May 2018 19:39 #20880 by juergen.scholl
Replied by juergen.scholl on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L - Hard Starts, Random Shutdowns
The difference between fuel pressure pid and mechanical gauge reading is due to the fact that the frps takes the intake manifold pressure (vacuum) into account and adds it to the above atmospheric pressure as indicated by a gauge.

If you had a graphing scanner or a scope it would be so helpful to get an idea ovf what is missing when the engine stalls/doesn't restart immediately.

An expert is someone who knows each time more on each time less, until he finally knows absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
Last edit: 19 May 2018 19:39 by juergen.scholl. Reason: spell it right the second time ?
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19 May 2018 20:51 #20881 by Loachuck
Hello Tyler, thanks for weighing in on this - I was hoping you would! I may or may not have that freeze frame right now, but if I do I'll get it up when I can. The area I've been concentrating on recently is the wiring - from my original post towards the end (corrected circuit breaker references to RELAY):

"One thing I don't understand is the amp draw into the BJB, normal with no extras running, is under 10 amps. The puzzling part of this is the PCM relay (which is rated at 40 amps continuous) is only pulling 5 to 5.5 amps and the relay gets quite warm after a bit, bordering on hot after a while - have measured up to 125 degrees on it. It doesn't make sense to me that a relay rated for 40 amps continuous can get that hot w/5 amps of draw - just my humble opinion and the reason for the time I've spent so much time checking wiring"

I posted on another board earlier and it was pointed out "It would if there was high resistance in those contacts causing a voltage drop" and further "You probably should be doing some voltage drop testing". This has caused me to reassess whether I have tested this whole circuit properly. When you look at the wiring diagram on this PCM circuit (which, IMHO, is poorly designed by Ford) it supplies 10 feeds (MAF, PCM (2) EGR, O2 (4), TRANS, and 1 or 2 more - all seem to be related to DTC's that come and go, except for the P0600 and P061B.

To be honest, I was not that familiar with proper voltage drop testing, so I need to pull the doghouse (again) and make sure I thoroughly check all these items properly, including grounds. Took a couple of "classes" today so I'm up to speed :-)

The heating up of the PCM relay doesn't seem right, and is about the only clue I have right now. What say you?

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20 May 2018 13:01 #20912 by Tyler
I can't say I've measured the temperature of the PCM Power Relay on a normal vehicle. :unsure: But, for comparison, I did measure the temperature of a Ford Battery Saver Relay during a parasitic draw issue. It was using about 170 mA, and had warmed up to about 100 degrees. 125 degrees does sound a bit hot, but that may not be unusual? I'll see if I run into a similar Ford this week and compare.

Voltage drop testing those power feeds may not be a bad idea. You can pick pretty much any component and connect one DMM/scope lead to that power wire, and touch the other end on one of the test terminals on F21 (which is what feeds the load side of the relay). Given how many connections/splices/fuses are involved, some voltage drop is expected. 300 to 500 mV would be reasonable, IMO.

Another good test of this circuit would be to get the van to not start again, and take a measurement at one of those components. The ESM might be easiest to get at with the doghouse off? Watch the voltage during cranking and see how low it goes. Again, some drop is expected. Anything less than 9V during a steady crank would represent a problem, IMO.

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21 May 2018 18:11 #20943 by Loachuck
Thanks Tyler,
Got some info from the load testing from today:

.06 - .08 V drop on MAF - from F21 & F23
.18 - .25 V drop on ESM - from F21
.15 - .20 V drop on ESM - from F23
.18 - .25 V drop on HO2s & rear main harness connector

Also, was able to retrieve FF data from a while back - .txt file attached
I have not cleared DTC's since last event because I had been clearing too often for complete relearn. Have not driven much since then.
Have started a few times and the last couple times started first shot, but is running kind of ragged.

That's it for now, and thanks again.
Chuck
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22 May 2018 09:23 #20961 by Loachuck
Also, have decided this morning that I'm going to go ahead and switch to my newer PCM with the updated calibrations - the original is now approaching 12 years old and I doubt it has ever been flashed. I would rather keep the new unit for the long term, although I do expect more issues with it, at least initially.

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26 May 2018 13:55 #21036 by Loachuck
OK, have pretty much given up on the voltage drop and electrical issues as I just cannot find ANYTHING. Swapped over to my newer PCM and fired right up and ran perfect - until I took it out for a spin and shut down within 2 miles - SOS.

At any rate, pulled the FF data and am including it here, just in case anyone reading this might have a clue from the data.

Thanks
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26 May 2018 16:41 #21039 by Tyler
Thank you for the freeze frame data, much appreciated. B)

I see a trend here. Both codes seem to set at around 40-50 MPH, during or just after a closed throttle decel event? Relative Throttle Position is always very low, regardless of what Absolute or Calculated Load is doing.

Letting off the throttle always produces a shift in the engine and related harnesses, so I'm wondering if you're looking at a chaffed harness that only rubs when you let off the throttle hard enough. :huh: Anything that would be pulled or tugged by the engine rocking in its mounts is suspect.

The first place I'd suggest looking is around the EGR tube. ;) It's out there in the open on the drivers side, and gets hot enough to cook the plastic loom off in a hurry.

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26 May 2018 16:54 #21041 by Loachuck
I think I may have found the problem - wish I had checked this long ago. Decided to take some temp readings on these CA CARB compliant cats (4 of them) and found the following. 3 of them read about 315F in and 290 to 270 out while the first on the left measured about 415F in and about 315F out!! No wonder the damn computer can't get the fuel delivery right - thinking back, it all makes sense now.

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26 May 2018 16:56 #21042 by Loachuck
Shouldn't the temps be higher on exit?

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26 May 2018 17:05 #21044 by Tyler

Loachuck wrote: Shouldn't the temps be higher on exit?


Eh, depends on what you measured them? After a long test drive, ideally. I don't place a lot of faith in catalyst temps, to be honest. :silly:

I think if you had a catalyst causing some kind of exhaust restriction or fuel trim imbalance, it wouldn't be stalling/not starting, it'd just be running on four cylinders. It'd also have a severe lack of power under load.

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26 May 2018 18:17 #21045 by Loachuck
Stalling under light to medium load is when it shuts down most often. ONE of it's "behaviors" is that it will idle perfectly but when you gas it lightly, it stumbles and falls on it's face like it's starving for fuel and then the FEM shuts it down.

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26 May 2018 18:22 #21046 by Loachuck
The main reason I checked the cat temps is because of the 1149 F temp reported on the FF - seems quite high?

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26 May 2018 18:29 #21047 by Tyler

Loachuck wrote: The main reason I checked the cat temps is because of the 1149 F temp reported on the FF - seems quite high?


It definitely sounds hot! But I find those readings to be normal. You can even go back to the first thread - those FF captures showed 1300 degree readings.

I can dig up more known good captures here in a bit.

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26 May 2018 19:00 #21050 by Loachuck
OK, thank you Tyler for trying to help me. I've been dealing with this for over a year now. Really running out of options - do you think it's POSSIBLE the cats could be causing the problems with this CARB compliant system? - the vehicle is almost 12 years old now.

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27 May 2018 12:21 #21057 by Tyler
It's not impossible, but I'd be very surprised. I've never seen an exhaust restriction cause the codes or.symltoms you're experiencing. The restriction would have to be very severe, on both banks.

You could check for this by pulling one of the DPFE hoses off and installing a vacuum gauge. Watch the gauge at idle - more than 1 PSI is a problem. You can also snap the throttle and observe the needle. Normal systems will show an increase during the snap, but restricted systems will usually bury the gauge.

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