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2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only

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23 Apr 2017 09:24 #8940 by hans.andersen
2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only was created by hans.andersen
Hello there, during last two months i have problems with this code. It produced freeze frame 3 times, which i have saved, however when i came to my mechanic later on, he couldn't find anything stored in computer (said it was only pending and it erases after several startups - see below).

Now the issues:
a/ 3 times it went to limp mode on highway, which gaves me like 15 sec to move to the side before it shuts down but after restart it works normally - those are 3 times it generates freeze frame, which i have in pdf format

b/ Starting a car after longer period of stay - basically when engine cools off. So in the morning before work and then after work when going home. It basically takes me 3-4 times to start up the car. It starts up right away but stalls but after 3-4th time of starting it stays on and runs like a champ

What i noticed is when the car starts sometimes right up it idles normally but when i want to press gas pedal it stalls right away. So i have to turn it off and try again. Another time it starts ok, but when i accelerate it doesnt want to shift to another gear. So again turn off and right back on and car is ok.

So far was done or changed (after which relearn procedure was performed)
- changed air filter
- cleaned MAF sensor
- replaced MAF sensor
- replaced TPS sensor
- replaced CAM sensor
- replaced CKP sensor
- replaced EGR valve
- replaced spark plugs
- replaced COP plugs
- smoke test for vacuum leak but that didn't reveal anything

Only thing left is possibly some other mini vacuum leak? But does it explain driving normally and only produces dreaded p061b 3 times over 2 months period while daily driving? Also Long term fuel trim is kinda high at 14-17 which would point to that, especially when it corrects and goes to 7-9 while getting rpms to above 2k.

Any suggestion or help would be greatly appreciated. Mechanic (friend of mine) said with no other code changing throttle body is not necessary but we are running out of ideas.

Thank You
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23 Apr 2017 09:48 - 23 Apr 2017 09:50 #8941 by hans.andersen
Replied by hans.andersen on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
2nd part:

Also have a video of starting (since then starter was changed as well to address that sound you can hear in the background)
Had to record it one morning so i can show it to mechanic because everytime i drove there, car warmed up and ran and started perfectly (until the next morning). In this video it took more than 4 times to start and stay running but that was in february so might be cold related? Nowadays it takes usually 3-4 times sometimes less. Remember that p061 only set 3 times so far as pending but this starting issue is everyday



Edit: During start i tried to press gas pedal which you can hear but it made no difference whatsoever, like it did not register at all.
Last edit: 23 Apr 2017 09:50 by hans.andersen.

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23 Apr 2017 09:56 #8942 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Hey hans! Do you happen to get any other codes along with the P061B? I'm thinking of P2107 Throttle Actuator Control Motor Processor or P2110 Throttle Actuator Control System - Forced Limited RPM. The P2107 would be associated with an input problem, while the P2110 just indicates the forced idle condition. P2106 might be showing up, too?

Anyway, it sounds like you've put a lot of time into this one already! I was going towards a coil causing RFI, but you've replaced them all already. When you say you replaced the TPS, do you mean you changed JUST the position sensor portion of the throttle actuator? Just want to make sure I understood that correctly. ;)

Is there any kind of aftermarket air filter or tubing present? This P061B is related to the PCM's internal torque calculation, which could be thrown off by stuff like non-laminar air flow across the MAF, or intake air leaks under load.

b/ Starting a car after longer period of stay - basically when engine cools off. So in the morning before work and then after work when going home. It basically takes me 3-4 times to start up the car. It starts up right away but stalls but after 3-4th time of starting it stays on and runs like a champ


This symptom sounds like it's pretty repeatable? When you can get the van to do it's start/stall thing, I'd suggest stepping on the gas and seeing if that allows the engine to start before the third or forth attempt. If it starts, that'd indicate a lack of airflow into the engine during cranking. It'd also be good to watch scan data during this event, particularly fuel rail pressure and the throttle position PIDs. That'd tell us what the PCM is doing with the throttle, and if it's responding correctly.

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23 Apr 2017 10:06 #8943 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only

hans.andersen wrote: 2nd part:

Also have a video of starting (since then starter was changed as well to address that sound you can hear in the background)
Had to record it one morning so i can show it to mechanic because everytime i drove there, car warmed up and ran and started perfectly (until the next morning). In this video it took more than 4 times to start and stay running but that was in february so might be cold related? Nowadays it takes usually 3-4 times sometimes less. Remember that p061 only set 3 times so far as pending but this starting issue is everyday


Nice, thanks for the video! Good thinking. ;) This is pretty much what I was visualizing in my head when you described the symptoms.

Edit: During start i tried to press gas pedal which you can hear but it made no difference whatsoever, like it did not register at all.


:lol: Sorry sir, I posted my gas pedal suggestion just as you were posting this video. So working the pedal makes no difference...

Trying to think of the next easiest step. :blink: Testing on this is a bit more difficult than usual, since it's an Econoline and access to the engine isn't easy. I'd still be interested to watch the fuel pressure during the start/stall, just to make sure that this isn't an unrelated symptom.

How about this? Next time you can get it to start/stall, pull the doghouse off and find the brake booster vacuum hose (or any other large vacuum line you can find). Pull it off the intake and try to start it again. If it now starts, then we're pretty certain the engine is starving for air. That would point us back towards the throttle body as a problem.

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23 Apr 2017 10:14 - 23 Apr 2017 10:16 #8944 by hans.andersen
Replied by hans.andersen on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Good morning Tyler, did not expect so fast reply, thank You for that!
To answer your question, No just p061b code itself, that is what is throwing my friend mechanic off. He said usually with other codes present it can help pinpoint the problem but this one by itself it is first time he actually saw it.
And only position sensor (black thingy) was replaced not the whole throttle body. Nothing aftermarket, air filter is motorcraft brand, as well as TPS sensor, other replaced parts i can't vouch for brand but we agreed to use motorcraft everywhere unless there is non available on market.

For getting to start a car, yes this is what i experience everyday, and honestly i thought we got rid of p061b problem until it happened again 3 days ago again.. I will try to step on gas, and vacuum booster unplugging, thank You for suggestion :-) will report back here
Meanwhile have a nice rest of the weekend
Last edit: 23 Apr 2017 10:16 by hans.andersen.

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23 Apr 2017 10:22 #8946 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only

hans.andersen wrote: Good morning Tyler, did not expect so fast reply, thank You for that!


No problem. :) I'm with your mechanic friend - I've never seen that code by itself, very curious.

For getting to start a car, yes this is what i experience everyday, and honestly i thought we got rid of p061b problem until it happened again 3 days ago again.. I will try to step on gas, and vacuum booster unplugging, thank You for suggestion :-) will report back here
Meanwhile have a nice rest of the weekend


You too! I think the booster hose is on the back side of the intake, anyway? :lol: Can't remember exactly.

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23 Apr 2017 10:55 - 23 Apr 2017 10:56 #8950 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Hey hans, could you send me those BlueDriver freeze frame reports? This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Last edit: 23 Apr 2017 10:56 by Tyler. Reason: durr

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03 May 2017 13:44 #9235 by hans.andersen
Replied by hans.andersen on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Good afternoon Tyler and everybody,

sorry for delay, was out of town so could not get back with report.

What is new since then:
1/ Created shared folder on dropbox where i uploaded all freeze frames, live data etc.

www.dropbox.com/sh/qm0v64t3v3nn0k2/AAAoh...p-rE4r2rHLzISQa?dl=0

2/ Brake booster test went like this: If i unplugged the booster hose, car would crank but not start. If i plug the hose with finger and start the car up, then remove finger, car would keep running, there would be only small drop in RPM.

3/ Cave in to my wife and went for another smoke test and car diagnostics, this time at Pep Boys. They said i need new MAF, which i replied it is already new, so they said to try another brand, that HITACHI one i 'm using might not be 100 % compatible. Long shot but i did returned HITACHI to O'reilly's and get the other brand they had, remanufactured Cardone, long story short, did not make a difference.

4/ Car stalled again yesterday (uploaded new Freeze frame and live data to dropbox link above), but this time for the first time there is another code pending with P061B and that is P2198. It is only pending so i will try to drive it to work tomorrow to see if it will illuminate MIL or not.

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03 May 2017 13:52 #9236 by hans.andersen
Replied by hans.andersen on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only

Tyler wrote:

b/ Starting a car after longer period of stay - basically when engine cools off. So in the morning before work and then after work when going home. It basically takes me 3-4 times to start up the car. It starts up right away but stalls but after 3-4th time of starting it stays on and runs like a champ


This symptom sounds like it's pretty repeatable? When you can get the van to do it's start/stall thing, I'd suggest stepping on the gas and seeing if that allows the engine to start before the third or forth attempt. If it starts, that'd indicate a lack of airflow into the engine during cranking. It'd also be good to watch scan data during this event, particularly fuel rail pressure and the throttle position PIDs. That'd tell us what the PCM is doing with the throttle, and if it's responding correctly.


I will log live scan data for fuel rail pressure and throttle position when i get in the car and upload to dropbox and get back here. thank You for suggestion Tyler

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06 May 2017 15:41 #9309 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Hey hans! I haven't forgotten about this thread. ;-) Thanks for the e-mail and the freeze frame upload, much appreciated.

The P2198... I think the code definition for that one is Bank 2 Not Switching, Stuck Rich :unsure: Not sure how that one is connected yet!

I'm still convinced the answer is in the freeze frame somewhere, so I'll be looking those over. Somehow, the PCM isn't happy with it's torque calculation, and I figure the reason has to be in one of it's main engine load inputs.

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06 May 2017 16:12 - 06 May 2017 16:20 #9310 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Talking out loud here, for whatever good it'll do. This is as much for my benefit as anyone else:

1.) On a couple of the captures, the calculated load and the absolute load don't match. February 23rd is the best example... 22% calculated load (low load, close to idle), MAP is 9.5 inHg (low), MAF at 15.45 lb/min (or 115 g/s, which is relatively high), and 81% absolute load (WOT or close to it).

My understanding says calculated load is based off the MAF (which sorta match in the February 23rd capture), while absolute load is based on the MAP (which does NOT match). Why does the PCM think the engine is under such high load? :blink: The MAP would need to be reading closer to 25 inHg for the absolute load number to make sense.

2.) The no start symptoms kinda match a lack of fuel problem. I was wondering about some kind of air restriction issue initially, but I think your brake booster test rules that out. Now I'm kinda wondering if there's actually a fuel pressure problem. :unsure: Hypothetically, if the fuel rail pressure sensor were lying (stuck at 40-ish PSI, for example), then the actual rail pressure might be quite different. This might explain the stalling, the lean trims (not enough fuel pressure), the P2198 (too much fuel pressure), and the no start.

Try this: Next time you anticipate a no start, try adding some carb clean to that same brake booster hose. If it runs off the carb clean, but won't otherwise, then we're going in the direction of fuel pressure.
Last edit: 06 May 2017 16:20 by Tyler.
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13 May 2017 06:48 - 13 May 2017 10:10 #9505 by hans.andersen
Replied by hans.andersen on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Good morning Tyler,
thank You for being persistent with solving my problem here, really appreacite it.
I uploaded several new live data from May 4th and 5th that shows fuel rail pressure during starting. Hopefully it will help pointing us in the right direction. I will also try carb clean into breather hose this weekend and post results.

The news:
1/ The pending code P2198 was gone the very next day.

2/ Yesterday (May 12th) when i was waiting in my car for my coworker to pick us up those Mcdonald's $1 coffees, engine light came up, this time with another code. For some reason, not sure if it's good or bad, but it made me happy it is not P061b. But rather p0171 with pending p0174. Uploaded May 12th scan and freeze frame for You to check and see some sense in it. When i checked forums and all these youtube videos (scanner danner, ford tech makuloco, etc.) it mostly point at intake manifold gasket leaking or injector seals, but wouldn't 2 smoke test discover this?

3/ Today (May 13th) pending code p0174 is gone but MIL still shows P0171, but that pending code P0174 might have been gone after trip from work too, did not notice (drove around 70 miles). Going to try that carb cleaner brake booster hose tip Tyler and see what we get.
Last edit: 13 May 2017 10:10 by hans.andersen. Reason: Clarification

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13 May 2017 07:51 - 13 May 2017 10:12 #9508 by hans.andersen
Replied by hans.andersen on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
UPDATE May 13th:

Was able to trigger p061b on demand. Uploaded a video and appropriate scan data and live data from May 13th. Before i trigger P061b i pressed gas pedal lightly 3 times in sequence, so it is seen on live data and easily identified. 4th spike pedal goes all the way to the floor and car stalls. Might be in conjuction with triggered P0171, hopefully this is game changer for us. Afternoon, after my chores will try to do brake booster carb cleaner tip.

EDIT: So this only worked on cold engine, when i was returning back from customer estimate, i tried it on my driveway again but this time car revved like there's no tommorrow and continue idling. Uploaded live data as well, stamped May 13th, 9:56 am
Last edit: 13 May 2017 10:12 by hans.andersen. Reason: Cold engine only, new data uploaded

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13 May 2017 10:49 #9519 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic 2007 Ford e150 4.6L V8 code p061b only
Hey hans! Loving the data you're uploading, much appreciated.

That video sure makes it seem like the engine is running out of fuel... This sorta makes sense in light of the lean codes and no start cold. I'm starting to wonder about the Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor, and if it's telling the truth. The sensor itself is a bit too expensive (around $100) to just take a guess at, but I can think of some quick tests to try if you're game?

Here's a diagram of the fuel pump electrical circuit, for reference:



My thinking is that, after sitting overnight, the fuel rail pressure will be zero. The rail pressure sensor should agree with this, but just getting in and turning the key on won't work, since the pump will prime and raise the rail pressure. What we need to do is disable the pump BEFORE you turn the key on. The easiest way I can see to do this is to pull fuse #13 in the Battery Junction Box (or the relay, doesn't matter). That'll kill the Fuel Pump Driver Module and prevent pump operation. Then, check the fuel rail pressure with your scanner and see what it says.

The other ways to check the rail pressure sensor would be removing it from the rail and using a hand pump to check it's rationality, or hooking a pressure gauge to the Schrader valve on the rail. Not sure if you have a hand pump or a gauge set, and both of those tests would probably require removing the doghouse. :-(
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