Help us help you. By posting the year, make, model and engine near the beginning of your help request, followed by the symptoms (no start, high idle, misfire etc.) Along with any prevalent Diagnostic Trouble Codes, aka DTCs, other forum members will be able to help you get to a solution more quickly and easily!

Could this be root cause? solved but some new codes-need hose identified

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3 years 1 week ago - 3 years 1 week ago #47566 by Sopey52
Hello, I am new here. I decided to save time trying to explain everything in writing, which I am not good at, by making videos that I am obviously very good at either because I don't even explain things correctly as far as "I started making this video"...I didn't start making it until after it started by surprise because I expected it not to start but since I saw Battery Low fuel instead of Battery Low Fuel Secirity, I decided to try it and it started and ran for over 7 minutes and then shut off but after I ran out of storage space on my iphone.

Video when I was able to get it started today after 3 times with a no crank.


Video 2 shows No Crank after it shut off after I ran out of storage on my phone for the first video. Ran for 7 to 8 minutes.
its a no crank at this point. It is always either a no crank or a no start because sometimes it does crank and will not start.
Once I get it to start, it will run for 2 maybe 7 minutes and then shuts off and then it is a no crank until maybe I can get it to a no start or it starts and eventually shuts off again. Seems like security does have something to do with it. If I lived close enough I would bring it to Scanner Danner's Garage but I would like to be able to finally figure this out on my own and pat myself on the back if it does not mean I have to invest a lot of money figuring it out vs I should have taken it to someone else or just give up and ship it to the salvage yard.
Attachments:
Last edit: 3 years 1 week ago by Sopey52. Reason: These are two codes that show up right now. I can only communicate with the computer after a sucessful start. Scanner will not in run if moved from off without a sucessful start.

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3 years 1 week ago #47577 by Chad
Seems like a bad ground, to me. I would start with G113.


File Attachment:

File Name: 2003ChevyV...tion.pdf
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File Name: 2003ChevyV...cuit.pdf
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File Name: 2003ChevyV...rols.pdf
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"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."

I have learned more by being wrong, than I have by being right. :-)

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3 years 1 week ago - 3 years 1 week ago #47593 by Sopey52
Thank you for replying Chad. I was there last week and cleaned things up. Two years ago that seemed to be my answer. The Earth strap goes into loom which I may cut open for further investigation. I’m going to revisit it as I did not properly test and just cleaned. Thanks for your file attachments of wiring which will be very helpful. I and been searching online and even paid for online Haynes Manual which does not say where the actual ground locations are like your attachments do.

I need to ask a dumb question, because I am not a mechanic. Are all the numbers on the sides of the wiring diagrams pins going into the PCM?

Also, looking at that first attachment, I think I need to look at G111 to ignition which is on other side of starter that I can’t get to yet until I get a jack. This van looks nice but my rockers are putty.
I’ll start with G113 and G111 and see what happens.
Thanks very much.
Last edit: 3 years 1 week ago by Sopey52.

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3 years 1 week ago - 3 years 1 week ago #47595 by Sopey52
After studying these charts, I have a question. Looking at Powertrain management diagrams page 4 of 4. If I have the black/white ground from PCM joined with black/white ground from ignition control module and connected to same G111 instead of one to G113 and one to G111, would that be a problem?

I had a used transmission put in this van a few years ago. I know that two thin black/white ground wires are joined together onto the same Ground location but I do not know if this location is G111, or G117.

Update, later same day: I will end up sounding like an idiot but I am not a mechanic. G113 is easy to find, to the left of the starter because the negative battery terminal connects to it. I am not sure if the ground behind it and slightly above it is G111 or G117. Either way, the small black/white ground wires I am concerned about (don't know which is which) are what I believe to be one that is from the PCM and one that is from the ICM. I separated them. One needs to go to G113 and one needs to go to G111. Both were connected to G111 if it was not G117. An earth strap that did not look so good was also connected to G111 or G117 and I decided to break it. I am going to replace it. If I am confusing anyone reading this, its because I am totally confused because I am only able to see two ground locations where they wiring diagrams say there should be 3 relatively close to each other.
Last edit: 3 years 1 week ago by Sopey52. Reason: Additional information

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3 years 1 week ago #47604 by Chad

Sopey52 wrote: Are all the numbers on the sides of the wiring diagrams pins going into the PCM?

Yes.


If I have the black/white ground from PCM joined with black/white ground from ignition control module and connected to same G111 instead of one to G113 and one to G111, would that be a problem.


I don't see where that would be a problem, as long as there is a good connection, ultimately, with the negative battery post.

"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."

I have learned more by being wrong, than I have by being right. :-)

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3 years 1 week ago - 3 years 1 week ago #47608 by Sopey52
I made this video to try to make it easier for someone to help me. Making videos is easier said than done. Hopefully I didn't ramble too much and it makes sense and maybe someone can help me figure if this is worth repairing and the best approach. Thank you in advance for your time. OH BY THE WAY, 98% OF THE TIME, OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS, THE VAN RAN FINE. ITS THAT 2% THAT HAS NOT BEEN FUN.

Last edit: 3 years 1 week ago by Sopey52. Reason: replaced my many paragraphs with a video to hopefully make it easier to understand the vehicle history.

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3 years 1 week ago - 3 years 1 week ago #47619 by Sopey52
Made some progress today after going back to the G113 G111 G117 area where I don't know the difference between G111 and G117 and I redid a ground wire. I don't know where that ground wire comes from. I believe, according to the wiring diagrams that is it ignition control module or the PCM. it comes out of the conduit and loom that I don't want to pull apart unless I have to. I got two more codes to add the the P0122 and the P0452. I now also have P1635 and P1639.


So this is Scanner Danner's video on the new codes


I just made a video today showing I have melted conduit in the same area but I cannot see any exposed copper or shorted wire. I need to upload it and show you here.
Last edit: 3 years 1 week ago by Sopey52. Reason: Additional Inforemation

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3 years 5 days ago - 3 years 5 days ago #47667 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
Check out attached screenshot of the exposed wire to alternator plug. I am assuming this is a 5v plug. I could not see this with my eyes until I pulled all the loom so I could get the plug out to where I could see it. I am inspecting the rest of the loom and cannot find anything else so far. The one on the right, although you can really see in the photo, appears to be almost completely severed.
Attachments:
Last edit: 3 years 5 days ago by Sopey52. Reason: Added last sentence

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3 years 5 days ago - 3 years 5 days ago #47669 by Nelson60
Replied by Nelson60 on topic Could this be root cause?
1.Is it currently in a no crank, no start condition? If so, look at your wiring diagram and focus on the circuit and requirements that are required to engage the starter. Don't get overwhelmed by every and all things that are not working. By focusing on one problem at a time, you will find the root cause of all the other circuit problems
2,A good place to check(if it is a no crank/no start_ is at the relay. starter relay
Check the control side and load side of the relay. Paul has many great videos explaining this. There is a way to jump across the relay and provide power to the starter at the relay BUT you have to be careful or you will damage the PCM.
3, The warning lights/low fuel gage reading, along with relay clicking in the Fuse box makes me suspicious of a poor ground condition. As a quick test, connect on end of a battery jumper cable to the battery negative and the other end of the same cable to the engine block. See if the van will now crank. You can also move the ground from the engine block to the firewall to see if it will crank and/or if the warning lights go OUT if you get it started.
4. Be aware of broken/poor crimps at small ground eyelets. Just because it looks good, doesn't mean it is. Paul had a recent video a while back where they found a problem due to a poor ground eyelet being the culprit.
5. I watched your videos, but it was not clear if you are currently missing a 5v ref signal when you tested for it.


Keep us posted.
PS. You have a test light also?
Last edit: 3 years 5 days ago by Nelson60.
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3 years 5 days ago - 3 years 5 days ago #47674 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
Thanks for your response and advice. I had done a test with the battery cable as a ground as you described but I hooked it to frame with no results. My situation now is only a no crank and or a no start after it stalls after running for maybe 2 minutes to 8 minutes. Because I have a leaky power stearing pump, I decided to pull it so I could look at as much wiring as I can from that area through how it was run between the alternator and motor without any insulation on about 3" of wires. I also decided to order a cam shaft position sensor since I pulled the pump. Some of my decisions are based on weather and the fact that I don't have the van in a garage. I inspected every ground I could before joining this forum and I went over them again after Chad's suggestion where I decided to redo one and that has made a difference. Generally, the first time I try to start it each day it is either a no crank or a couple of no starts and then it starts. When it stalls it runs for a couple of minutes and then it stalls. At that time the fuel injectors, fuel relay, fuel pump are are going off like a semi automatic. Then there is a no crank to where I might as well give up and give a at least 10 minutes to cool down. This is why I suspected security but it is obviously some type of short somewhere.

One basic that I cannot review due to I can't get under the van until I get a good jack (because my rockers are shot and I don't trust using the jack that came with it) to safely place the jack stands I recently purchased....I need to inspect the positive side of the starter and that end of the positive battery cable. I was able to get to the negative side and clean up the negative terminal from above but I can't get to the positive side.

I am assuming its a 5v short because I have been through the grounds several times and so have at least 4 other mechanics ever since the gremlin started. I say stuff here, maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but I am trying.



While I am waiting for my cam shaft sensor to arrive, I am going to finish inspecting all plugs and connectors to ignition and throttle boddy. I need to repair that plug on the alternator because that one wire (does not show up in camera) is almost completely cut. Hopefully I can do it the same way Paul shows on a video, otherwise I need to buy a replacement plug. Once I get this all put back together I will go back through your steps and suggestions if that plug or anything else i find before wrapping wire back up does not solve the problem.

I was hoping for suggestion on how to repair that plug but I think I can pop the pins out and rewire them. I never did that before but I have been inside wifi routers. I can solder, etc, if I can hold my hands still enough. I'm getting old and am banged up. ;)
Last edit: 3 years 5 days ago by Sopey52.

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3 years 4 days ago - 3 years 4 days ago #47694 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
This bad connections to the plug on the alternator, (as shown in attached photo) was not the cause but i repaired it. Even though I cannot start van due to waiting for camshaft sensor (decided to replace it since i have to replace the power steering pump) I was able to test by putting the key into the run position and the fuel injectors, relay, and pump still keep behaving same way and the Battery/Low Fuel/Security still exists. I am going to revisit my grounds once again. One thing I noticed last week is that the eyelets I used from autozone will not stick to a magnet. I don't know if that means anything. I am watching through as many related videos as I can find. My light tester is LED. Should I buy an incandescent tester? How would I be able to know if my block to body ground is connected to the right location? I am going to try the battery cable testing and light testing as I watched in your videos. I did some of that but possibly not correctly. Thanks for your time Nelson. I will likely have to wait until Saturday to do any more with this because of rain.
Last edit: 3 years 4 days ago by Sopey52.

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3 years 3 days ago - 3 years 3 days ago #47740 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
First off, I don't know how this topic became a new thread when I replied under my original thread. @Nelson60, I went and bought an incandescent tester and since the rain stopped in the afternoon, I did test from battery negative all over my engine block with key off an key in run (can't start motor until power steering pump replaced after I change chamshaft sensor) and all tested good. I cannot reach the positive side of my starter to test it. I decided to change what I believe is the block ground from what I believe to be G117 to G113 and when I put the key in run the fuel pump, fuel injectors, and fuel relay do not turn on and off anymore and do not freak out anymore. The fuel pump turns on one time and shuts off like it is supposed to. I did try to crank the motor one time just for kicks without the belt installed. That does make the fuel pump turn on an of and on and off but if I turn the key off and then turn the key back to run the fuel pump only turns on one time and does not engage anymore. I sat for quite a while and tried it three times. I think I am making progress. However, the message center still cycles through Battery/Low Fuel/Security. Maybe that will straighten out if I am able to get a successful start and keep the van running once I get everything put together, hopefully by Saturday.
Last edit: 3 years 3 days ago by Sopey52.

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3 years 2 days ago #47779 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
Time to throw in the towel. I thought I was making progress but I am not. It is not bad grounds and its way above my pay grade and not worth the time and money. This is one of 3 vehicles and my daughter just wrecked one of the three today. Fortunate that nobody was hurt. We are down to one vehicle now and its time for this Venture to go to the junk yard. Thanks very much for your time. I bought the book because I figured it was the least I should do since I was asking for help. Most of that book is way above my pay grade stuff I will never get into. I appreciate the time you folks put into videos. I learned alot but I also know this van is no longer worth the time and money. Thanks to Chad and Nelson for the time you gave me.

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3 years 2 days ago #47781 by Nelson60
Replied by Nelson60 on topic Could this be root cause?
Thanks for the update but was hoping and wishing for a better outcome.
I find it difficult, and frustrating most times with trying to help online due to the fact I don't have the vehicle in front of me to personally see, hear, and feel the variables affecting it. I guess I would be a failure at a call center for auto troubleshooting.

The purchase of Paul's book will pay for its self in keeping your fleet running and out of the shops. Don't let the content overwhelm you, take a little bite out of it and practice some of the techniques and tests shown.
Glad to hear your daughter is fine after the recent crash.
Post back any questions you might have on a future car purchase you may be considering.
Nelson

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3 years 1 day ago #47805 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
My thread about my van is closed and likely because I said I wanted to throw in the towel. I am not going to give up just yet. It seems like I did make some progress. It runs longer when it does start. However I am frustrated.

DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE WHERE THE GROUNDS ARE LOCATED?

On this 2003 Chevy Venture, G113 and G111 ( I just figured out) are on the same bolt and separated by nut. Thus there are two nuts on that bolt. I found a drawing online that proves it. G117 is slightly behind and above it. There are ground wires connected to 113 that are solid and clean looking and I can pull on them pretty hard. They stay connected. I cannot tell the difference between two identical looking, thinner ground wires that are around 20 or 18 gauge coming out of the same place in the loom. One of them is supposed to go to G111. and one is supposed to go to G117.

An earth ground was going to G117. I replaced it because it was corroded. Because I did not get any results, I decided to move it to G111.

My grounds may just be in the wrong place and/or I may have improved the ground wire connections but also screwed them up by putting them in the wrong place. Is there an easy way to test and figure out where each ground wire goes to besides tearing apart all the wire loom which is what a novice like me might have to do?

Also, if I replaced the earth cable from block to driver side of body opposite of battery and then I moved it from G117 to G111 as an experiment. Could I have created a new problem because G111 is on the same bolt as G113 and battery negative connects to G113?

So far i have improved the run time, I got rid of the security light. I still get a Battery and Low Fuel light. Once the van shuts off, it kind of acts like maybe I have a bad alternator but the alternator tests at 14.59 volts when running. After the van has stalled, the fuel pump will turn on and turn off an turn on and turn off but there is space between the on times and it no longer ends up sputtering on and off like a machine gun but it does have a sputter in it some times, just not nearly as extreme.

I hate going back and revisiting these ground wires because I have to remove the air box which includes unplugging mass airflow and removing 1/2 of the air intake hows with the air box and that is not easy at all because it is tightly surrounded by a fork of wire loom as the PCM sits on top of the air box. However, my problem needs to be ground wires or I am giving up and the van is going to junk yard.

How can I most easily figure out that I have the right ground wires in the right location?

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3 years 1 day ago #47809 by Tutti57
Replied by Tutti57 on topic Could this be root cause?
The ground location doesn't matter, just that they are good. I'm not familiar with your other thread, but in general, if you can get to the component that isnt working, you make sure that it's on or supposed to be on, and make sure it has near battery voltage on the power side and near 0v on the ground side. The circuit has to be on and energized for this test to be valid.

The battery ground goes to the frame or chassis or whatever, and makes those parts also the ground, which is why it doesn't matter where it is.

As far as the alternator putting out 14v, it's possible that it's not enough current, but still shows the higher voltage. That same power and ground tests applies to the alternator. I bet a lot of alternators are replaced that just have a bad power connection or something, then they unknowingly fix the problem when they replace it.

Some research in voltage drop testing will help you out with your ground tests. Paul has some videos on it for sure.

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk
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3 years 1 day ago #47818 by Sopey52
Replied by Sopey52 on topic Could this be root cause?
Thanks for your time. Can you explain to me what causes a "ground loop" and what that actually is?
I was concerned that could happen if a ground is in the wrong place.

This Chevy venture has error codes that I will attach and it has evidence of patchwork done by previous owner within the wire loom. I will avoid reposting my videos of my decade long saga with reappearing elecrical gremlins which have now manifested themselves into the van begging to be sent to the junk yard because it has 200,361 miles on it. I thought I could maybe figure this problem out myself without having to put more money than its worth into it. I might as a question here and there but I do not think this van issue is a ground issue anymore. I was getting battery/low fuel/security and I managed to get the security light out of that equation. I do have fuel pump that wants to turn off and on and off and on when the van is not running when the key is in run. I at least got that issue to stop sounding like a machine gun with the fuel relay and fuel injectors included.

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3 years 1 day ago #47823 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic Could this be root cause?
Hey Sopey52! FYI, I merged the ground location thread into your original thread. Not trying to kill the conversation, but having multiple threads about the same issue/vehicle/repair makes it more difficult for anyone else to follow along.

Let me catch up with what you've posted so far. :cheer:
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3 years 1 day ago - 3 years 1 day ago #47824 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic Could this be root cause?
I tried to watch the YouTube videos you posted early on, but they all show as private? :unsure:

Doesn't really matter, 'cause I think you should stay on this path:

I do have fuel pump that wants to turn off and on and off and on when the van is not running when the key is in run.


That's a perceptible symptom that can we can use to get some good direction. It's also conveniently testable from the underhood fuse box.

With the off/on symptom present, pull the fuel pump relay slightly out of it's socket. Not enough to disconnect the relay from the fuse box, just enough to get to the relay terminals with your multimeter.



Take voltage readings at all four terminals, long enough to witness at least one off/on cycle. Take note of the readings and report back. At least one is going to be changing. ;) Use the relay diagram on the top or bottom of the relay itself to tell you which terminal is which. Do not use a test light.

If getting to the relay terminals isn't possible, you can use the old trick of removing the relay and tying individual copper wire strands around each of the relay terminals before reinstalling. Just make darn sure not to let the strands touch each other or anything metal. ;)

There are also kits like this that make relay testing a breeze:

www.amazon.com/Lisle-56810-Relay-Test-Jumper/dp/B002MCX6LY/
Last edit: 3 years 1 day ago by Tyler. Reason: clarity and stuff
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3 years 22 hours ago #47827 by Matt T
Replied by Matt T on topic Could this be root cause?

Sopey52 wrote: This Chevy venture has error codes that I will attach and it has evidence of patchwork done by previous owner within the wire loom.


Those four codes are all 5 volt reference related. It's possible they've been set by testing so first thing I'd do is clear them out and see if they come back.

SI for P0122 and P0452 says if P1635 is also set troubleshoot it. Found this "diagnostic aid" for P1635/9.

If any sensor using a 5-volt bias voltage, such as the intake air temperature (IAT) sensor or fuel level sensor, is shorted to voltage, DTC P1635 may set in addition to DTC P1639.


This might be a rabbit hole but it'd be worth checking the 5V and low reference circuits.
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