07 saturn vue

Hello I have a 07 saturn vue it has not run all monitors the cel blinks periodically it has a dim module u code no Comms with the dash integration module it has a bank 1 rich code and it has a misfire po300 thru po306 code on all six cylinders I looked at fuel trims at idle and about 2500 waaaaay Rich it was like -25 at 2500rpm I also noticed it would stay in open loo4p unless I revved it up I noticed it would switch to closed loop for a second then open back up I also looked at map it was holding at 10.4 at idle which seemed a little low I suspect a map. Problem with no code and vacuum leak effecting bank 1 why else would all six have a misfire the fuel trims are way off and the cel blinks probably from waaaaay rich

A map reading of 10.4 at idle (inches of HG I suppose) is actually pretty decent,if it was the vacuum reading then you have a problem...

What scanner are you using , does it provide misfire counter?The engine runs richer the higher the rpm go? How about engine temp sensor reading?

For our info (and to be clear), is this the 3.5L V6 engine? Pretty sure this is one of those strange Vue's that came with the J35 Honda engine. :silly:

What's bank one doing while the trims are pegged out on bank two? The misfire codes make me suspect a valve adjustment issue, but the MAP sensor reading does sound pretty reasonable.

Somewhat unlikely, but the EGR could be stuck open. That'd definitely account for the rich trims and misfires. What the EGR position at idle? Around 1.00V is what we're looking for.

Thanks all I have is Bosch code reader and my fluke it is the 3.5 and I did not know they put a hoodoo engine I will look at this one again and follow up thanks guys

Hi guys closing this one out customer took vehicle

chief eaglebear wrote: Hi guys closing this one out customer took vehicle

Ah I'm sorry sir. Let us know if this one comes back.

I dunno why some Vue's ended up with Hondoo engines? :lol: They're really conflicted cars - excellent engines, crap chassis.

ok its back i still have all six misfiring i took it for a little drive the mv on o2s were not switching(stayed close to around 7-8hundred mv) it also has a map code now which it did not have last week but that makes sense i noticed engine calculated load at idle is around 30% to close to 40% it still has a bank one rich code and you can feel the roughness at idle but just off of idle it runs good i also monitored fuel status it was switching to closed loop only when you kinda slowly short snap of throttle so you would see it go to closed loop for just an instant and back to open it would not stay in closed loop i am thinking verify o2s and verify map and put em in should we talk about testing o2s and map now

What scanner are you using? I ask because the upstream O2's on these engines are air/fuel ratio (wideband) sensors. They don't produce a voltage signal like conventional O2's do, but rather a current reading in mA. Global OBD data can sometimes make this confusing and unclear.

The upstream sensors will read 0 mA with a stoichiometric mixture. Rich will produce negative readings, lean will produce positive readings. Here's an example from ScanShare:

www.scanshare.io/share/SkAQl0NLiE6ixdCbU...,14,15,74,75,114,115

One very quick check that you can do is to compare the upstream air/fuel ratio sensor and the downstream O2 on the same bank. If the upstream sensor has negative (rich) readings, then the downstream better agree (over 800 mV).

As for the MAP sensor, there's a couple quick checks you can do there, too. At idle, fully warmed up with no electrical loads, the MAP should read less than 1.00V, usually closer to .9V. WOT will usually show 2.7 - 2.8V. You can also check rationality here by reading the MAP at KOEO. Again, should be around 2.8V.

Tyler wrote: What scanner are you using? I ask because the upstream O2's on these engines are air/fuel ratio (wideband) sensors. They don't produce a voltage signal like conventional O2's do, but rather a current reading in mA. Global OBD data can sometimes make this confusing and unclear.

The upstream sensors will read 0 mA with a stoichiometric mixture. Rich will produce negative readings, lean will produce positive readings. Here's an example from ScanShare:

www.scanshare.io/share/SkAQl0NLiE6ixdCbU...,14,15,74,75,114,115

One very quick check that you can do is to compare the upstream air/fuel ratio sensor and the downstream O2 on the same bank. If the upstream sensor has negative (rich) readings, then the downstream better agree (over 800 mV).

As for the MAP sensor, there's a couple quick checks you can do there, too. At idle, fully warmed up with no electrical loads, the MAP should read less than 1.00V, usually closer to .9V. WOT will usually show 2.7 - 2.8V. You can also check rationality here by reading the MAP at KOEO. Again, should be around 2.8V.

Is that map test specific to this vehicle or a good general test?

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I have a Bosch code reader with pids and the upstream af ratio sensor explains why it was only showing o2sb2.2 and o2sb1.2 I believe it was showing the milli amps of the af sensors I will have to check that out but as for those other checks I will update asap

Tutti57 wrote:

Tyler wrote: As for the MAP sensor, there's a couple quick checks you can do there, too. At idle, fully warmed up with no electrical loads, the MAP should read less than 1.00V, usually closer to .9V. WOT will usually show 2.7 - 2.8V. You can also check rationality here by reading the MAP at KOEO. Again, should be around 2.8V.

Is that map test specific to this vehicle or a good general test?

That's a pretty good rule of thumb for most Honda engines, IMO. Why 2.8V at atmospheric, when other makes are over 4V? Because Honda. :silly:

I have a Bosch code reader with pids and the upstream af ratio sensor explains why it was only showing o2sb2.2 and o2sb1.2 I believe it was showing the milli amps of the af sensors I will have to check that out but as for those other checks I will update asap

Yeah, that's kinda misleading, isn't it? :lol: FWIW, the open loop/closed loop behavior you're describing could be a PCM response to a dead misfire. I've seen other Honda's of this vintage react the same way, by open looping the bank with the misfire. Just something to keep in mind.

Watched a scanner danner video and a Wells video on wide bands very interesting I do not have a scan tool with af pids on it 3volts and 3.3 volts usually a scan tools needed to diagnose AF ratio sensors provides an even more precise fuel control from a wider range of sense

chief eaglebear wrote: Watched a scanner danner video and a Wells video on wide bands very interesting I do not have a scan tool with af pids on it 3volts and 3.3 volts usually a scan tools needed to diagnose AF ratio sensors provides an even more precise fuel control from a wider range of sense

If your scanner shows the mA PID for the upstream air/fuel ratio sensors, then you can probably get by with the scanner you have! I've got a thread going on this type of sensor, if you're looking for more info:

www.scannerdanner.com/forum/diagnostic-t...-testing-thread.html

Here's an example of the PIDs you're likely to see during a test drive. 'Lambda' in this case translates to 'Equivalence Ratio' in Global data.



www.scanshare.io/share/OrtyMv5LFkWuOWHfTccMZw

I am not sure if pid was the af sensor it does hovery around .900 mv with spikes to just over a volt I am still learning the af ratio diagnostics I also noticed the ign advance was oscillating from 8 to 14 also the fuel trims was stuck at -19 on bank one the calculated load was around 33-40 % at idle the map was 10 and would drop to 8 with foot touching pedal I noticed just bank one sensor one was the one tending to oscillate but it seemed like it settled down into .900 ma but was a less stable signal on bank two the o2s at idle were not really switching but seemed to stay in upper 7-900 mv range with no drops into the 1-2 hundred mv range which tells me it's stuck rich I did a cylinder drop test all were contributing but it seemed like some were contributing more than others I do have a dash integration code too which is preventing some monitors to run I tried looking at which monitors did not run I have a Bosch code reader with PIDS I can look at data on the map. O2s and fuel trims also iat and calculated load which was close to 40% at Idle? The ft on other side was around -9 I am thinking if I can figure out bank one bank two might correct I would like to test map as I think because of CL % something is wonky in map signal why would engine show 30%calculated load the check engine light does flash intermittantly I still have all six showing misfires the vehicle does run a little ruff idling but seems to open up just fine at higher rpm and load I forgot to look at iat temp and coolant temp and compare them

oh and this Bosch code reader when I checked monitors I do not know what Inc means this inc designation is next to some monitors I am wondering if it means -did not run-?? I was wondering I'd dash integration module would prevent some monitors not to run

I am not primary tech on this vehicle but am providing support to friends who run junkyard body shop but I do have access to it I was also gonna ask if this engine does have af sensors the bbb diagram shows o2s upstream

30-40% Calculated Load isn't all that unusual for vehicles at idle, IMO. It might be a bit elevated in this case because of manifold vacuum being low, probably related to the base issue that's causing the vehicle to run poorly.

The 'Inc' on the Readiness Monitors probably means incomplete, in that it just hasn't run yet. All the monitors get reset when you clear codes, so it's not surprising that some of the monitors haven't ran yet. Stuff like misfire codes will also prevent monitors from completing. I'm not sure which Dash Integration code you have? I doubt that has anything to do with it.

Which diagram did you find on BBB? This is the one I found for the 3.5L engine:

OK I had a different diagram