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2000 Honda Odyssey 240k miles rough idle. Where to start??

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16 Aug 2018 11:49 #22666 by John Clark
What is the gap on those plugs? They look huge! They should be max 0.043". Also, those appear to be the wrong plugs. The plugs in that car should be NGK PZFR5F11 or Denso PKJ16CR-L11. Maybe the photo is deceptive but wrong plugs and huge gaps have likely damaged the coils. Put in new plugs and then check the coils.

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16 Aug 2018 14:26 - 16 Aug 2018 14:30 #22668 by John Clark
The ZFR5FGP plug is a platinum plug when it should be a double platinum plug (PZFR5F11.) Again the gaps look way too big. What is the gap on those? These things can be very sensitive to the plugs used...same with O2 sensors. Stick with the exact brand and part number whenever possible.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2018 14:30 by John Clark.

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17 Aug 2018 02:45 - 17 Aug 2018 02:48 #22678 by Andy.MacFadyen
Those spark plug gaps look huge --- the wider the spark plug gap the higher the primary voltage demands on the coils, eventually the voltage demand under wide open throttle gets so enormous the primary voltage finds a path to ground outside the cylinder which damages and eventually destroys the coil or plug wire insulation.

In normal use the electrodes of the spark plug get eroded by the spark and combustion conditions the gap widens. Because of this spark plugs need to be changed at the specified interval otherwise failure will occur.

Platinum (and Iridium) spark plugs last much longer than the older style spark plugs but they still need changed. The only real functional difference between double platinum plugs and the equivalent fitting single platinum plugs is they maintain the spark gap within specification for even longer especially so on wasted spark systems.

Generally it is better to have the spark plug gap at the lower limit specified by the car manufacturer.

"There's always a catch ---- Catch OBD2 ."


Last edit: 17 Aug 2018 02:48 by Andy.MacFadyen.

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19 Aug 2018 11:14 #22715 by Dtnel
Ok here's a update and it's not good. Why do I feel like I get these problematic one's? There has to be a reason but I willingly step up to help neighbors out when asked. Anyways here's the latest update.

About half of the plugs were at .050 and 2 @ .060 and one at .045. A little far from the factory spec. Here's the new one's about to be installed as I type. Lol....

After replacing the plugs it turned out only one coil wasn't firing properly and I determined which one that was by swapping the number four and five and unplugging the harness on the suspect one again to see if anything changed. When I swapped the number 5 coil to the number 4 cylinder and unplugged it while running there was a change so that told me that the number 4 that I moved to the number five slot was bad. Replaced the coil, started the engine and she still has a knock in it. I have included a link that was with the earlier one. I stuck the borescope down the cylinders again but unfortunately my new one that gives me a 90 degree view to see the valves won't arrive till Monday.


Kind of perplexed on which way to go with this because I don't want to be too deep Intuit labor wise and come to find out who need a new engine. A faulty injector has came to mine but when the engine is sitting there running with the new ignition coil and spark plugs it sounds fine other than what's going on what the knocking noise which takes me the direction of does it need the valves done, is there a broken valve spring, I'm sitting here scratching my head. First time I've ever had to work on and they're definitely different especially with a lot of stuff being under the intake that you can't access easily.

I couldn't even figure out where to hook up to check the fuel pressure and then also do a resting pressure.

There's no codes present for the engine which is making me lean towards mechanical being the issue.

Anyway here's the link,

www.dropbox.com/sh/jlpxgcoqw...KDSu4OTGa?dl=0


Let me know your thoughts. If I have to open the valve covers on this vtec 3.5 my guess is the intake has to come off being it seems to cover the upper part of the valve covers?

I'm sure there's a tutorial someone has did out there. Time to go to bed after spending the better part of 4hrs throwing what ifs and doing google and youtube searches that have been fruitless.

I also wonder about a lack of lubrication possibly? The oil looks good and at the proper level.

I did add a half of gallon coolant the other day, pressure tested the cooling system and it held. Haven't really did any other tests.

Something has me stumped thinking it's something that's fairly easy to diagnose and I'll be thinking "why did I overlook that when I get it figured out"

This was a second vehicle for the family but now it's their primary being as they were driving their other vehicle down the road the other day and the tire came off the left front side and they have it towed home. Insurance will be coming by to look at it later today or tomorrow but my guess is it will be totaled. It is a 2007 Chrysler Pacifica. The Lugnuts had been loose and wobbled for a while as I noticed it on the damage to the rim but it took out offender as well as the bracket that spot-welded in front of the door that the fender bolts onto. With that vehicle down I spent all night last night from about 1 a.m. to 6 a.m. trying to figure this deal out with the Honda Odyssey.
Just to put curiosity to rest I had never worked on that left front tire. I had worked on the right front and bolt it on and talked it down properly and it's still holding good. I think whoever put this tire on didn't know what they were doing.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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19 Aug 2018 18:35 #22726 by Tyler
Sorry sir, but that Dropbox link doesn't work. :( Not for me, anyway.

Well done finding that dead coil, though! :cheer: Don't beat yourself up too much - it's easy to look at a list of codes and get sidetracked.

Your compression numbers would definitely suggest a valve adjustment issue. Doing the adjustment isn't so hard, as long as you take your time and get familiar with the feeler gauge. Really, the worst part is leaning way over to get to the back bank. :lol: If you haven't seen it already, ETCG has a series on valve adjustment.



The knock could be accounted for with valve adjustment as long as you find one (or more) valve to have loose adjustment. Tight adjustment (recessed valve seats) usually won't make noise.

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19 Aug 2018 21:01 #22734 by Dtnel

Tyler wrote: Sorry sir, but that Dropbox link doesn't work. :( Not for me, anyway.

Well done finding that dead coil, though! :cheer: Don't beat yourself up too much - it's easy to look at a list of codes and get sidetracked.

Your compression numbers would definitely suggest a valve adjustment issue. Doing the adjustment isn't so hard, as long as you take your time and get familiar with the feeler gauge. Really, the worst part is leaning way over to get to the back bank. :lol: If you haven't seen it already, ETCG has a series on valve adjustment.



The knock could be accounted for with valve adjustment as long as you find one (or more) valve to have loose adjustment. Tight adjustment (recessed valve seats) usually won't make noise.


See if this link will work I've had one friend suggest a rod knock , (not good if so) hopefully not the case. IF you can see the before and after let me know your thoughts.

www.dropbox.com/sh/jlpxgcoqwglnwvu/AAAz9...NeniMvKDSu4OTGa?dl=0

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20 Aug 2018 06:27 - 20 Aug 2018 06:33 #22741 by Noah
It's hard to pick up the tone of that noise, but it sure sounds a lot more serious than a valve adjustment....

Like i said, the tone is difficult to pick up on my phone, but I assume if it was a serious exhaust leak you would have narrowed it down to that already.

On the positive side, most 2000 Odysseys suffer from transmission issues, so engines are generally plentiful in the junk yard.

"Learn, apply, repeat."
Last edit: 20 Aug 2018 06:33 by Noah.

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20 Aug 2018 12:51 #22747 by Dtnel
Had someone suggest a air conditioning compressor. I think I'll remove the accessory drive belt and see if the sound tone changes.

Just received my BK8500 from snappy today. Been working towards this one for awhile. I'll definitely be able to get the angles I need to see the underside of the top end.

Think I might suck some oil up from the pan with my fluid extractor as I'd think if that was a rod knock I'd be bound to get some type of shavings from the pan.

Another thought is that I need to find the oil pressure switch and make sure the oil pump is working properly.

Keep in mind some cylinders (2 of them) would drop appx 20 psi when they peaked on compression.

I do see some cylinders are more wet than others on the top end. Could this be injector related, leaking rings related.

Is there a certain dye test I could do to determine certain things or rule out certain suspect components?

If it's a top end deal such as cam lobes worn, etc what are my options with mileage? Would I be able to get by redoing the top end or would I have to do a complete teardown?

I'm learning but not afraid. Have the tools to do anything. This is a area that I've always wanted to get more into but I want to do it a few times to see if I want to do the in depth stuff or stick with diagnostics. This is a classic case example of no codes but.... where's the noise coming from.

I don't think Paul comes across these often does he?

Could this be fuel related? I'm leaning away from fuel related into mechanical which isn't good either way.

He did have transmission rebuilt or replaced 3-4 yrs ago he said so we're at a crossroads.

Drivers door don't open from inside or outside either.

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20 Aug 2018 20:10 #22756 by Tyler
Yeah, that noise sounds pretty severe. :unsure: Never mind the valve adjustment.

If you want to narrow down the suspect area, you can listen carefully to the noise while disconnecting the ignition coils one by one. When you unplug one and the noise changes significantly, you know you've found a lower end problem. Or like Noah said, an exhaust leak, but this sounds worse than that.

If you go through all the coils and the noise never goes away or gets worse, then it's a possible upper end issue. IMHO, at 240K miles, any kind of mechanical issue is best fixed with a replacement long block.

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21 Aug 2018 06:59 - 21 Aug 2018 08:43 #22765 by Dtnel

Tyler wrote: Yeah, that noise sounds pretty severe. :unsure: Never mind the valve adjustment.

If you want to narrow down the suspect area, you can listen carefully to the noise while disconnecting the ignition coils one by one. When you unplug one and the noise changes significantly, you know you've found a lower end problem. Or like Noah said, an exhaust leak, but this sounds worse than that.

If you go through all the coils and the noise never goes away or gets worse, then it's a possible upper end issue. IMHO, at 240K miles, any kind of mechanical issue is best fixed with a replacement long block.


I know a few years ago he said he had to replace the transmission, 3-4 yrs I’m thinking. Never did a long block on one of these modern cars but there’s always the first time. Did a swap out on my old $50 “Indian truck” back in the early 90’s as I had to many accidents and needed s9mething with cheap insurance so a 78 Chevy C10 I think it was became the truck with a salvage yard donor engine.

Hopefully I can talk some sense into this guy. I can work with him n the labor and can spread the labor into payments. It’s a van that’s seen better days.as you’ll see in the video I posted to Youtube. Yes my first, unedited, raw YouTube video. I think everyone will get a laugh as I got the first laugh.
a
Back to the van. he uses it for work less than 2 miles away and picks the kids up and takes them daily which is less than a eamile. With the plugs, 1 coil, labor he has $200 in it. Don’t know what the going engin swap rate is but I’m sure it would take me longer but I’d finish it and that’s the point. As I tell my neighbor it covers my expensive addiction of tools.

I failed to mention I topped the coolant off a few nights ago, maybe Fri and after runn8ng it a couple times even with added coolant in the overflow tank I still put another quart in last night.

Enjoy the YouTune video and please don’t laugh to hard especially with how I have brain farts and forget .


Here’s the YouTube video I forgot to add earlier. Hopefully he sees the light a realizes that Getting a good cheap used engine is the easy way to go long term to keep it as a good fairly cheap fix vs buying another car which could cost much more compared to doing a used engine.

First shorter video I did regarding this minivan,



Video from early this morning.





I will go the direction that both of you suggested in the last couple posts. I plan on sucking some oil from the depths of the oil pan in search of metal shavings as well and possibly pulling the plug briefly. If the owner wants I can drop the pan.

As someone else suggested with the transmission issues known for these I’m sure used engines that have been tested are readily available.

One question, if we go long block by the chance he decides to get a engine should I replace the head gaskets and all other exterior gaskets along with the oil pump which I assume is a given.

I’ll try to get the pics of the cylinders with the extreme carbon buildup loaded up tomorrow or the next day. The new camera impressed me and took good pics. Snap On does need to modify the software for the camera but I Don’t think they’ll do it at the recommendation of just one guy. It sucks each time you take a picture that you have to manually confirm It by tapping the green check mark before you can take another one.
Last edit: 21 Aug 2018 08:43 by Dtnel. Reason: Added link for Youtube videos

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21 Aug 2018 13:16 - 21 Aug 2018 13:27 #22770 by Andy.MacFadyen
That to me is a fairly typical big end knock.... the regular solid "thunk" gives it away. The engine has reached the end of its useful life.

Valve train noises are a clattering rattle.

Piston slap is a more gentle slapping sound that tends to get less after as the engine warms up.

A loose torque converter makes an irregular solid clunk generally only when the rpm is increasing or decreaseing.

"There's always a catch ---- Catch OBD2 ."


Last edit: 21 Aug 2018 13:27 by Andy.MacFadyen.

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21 Aug 2018 13:51 #22772 by Dtnel

Andy.MacFadyen wrote: That to me is a fairly typical big end knock.... the regular solid "thunk" gives it away. The engine has reached the end of its useful life.

Valve train noises are a clattering rattle.

Piston slap is a more gentle slapping sound that tends to get less after as the engine warms up.

A loose torque converter makes an irregular solid clunk generally only when the rpm is increasing or decreaseing.


So if I drain the oil I should see metal shavings and if not drop the pan and I should see shavings somewhere ? I figure this will be the best way to show the owner it’s done with the motor.

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21 Aug 2018 14:24 #22773 by Andy.MacFadyen
You probably won't find anything in the oil bearing debris will have likely been drawn into the screen filter. The engine has driven the equivalent of 10 times around the planet even for a Honda engine that has to be a fair life span.

"There's always a catch ---- Catch OBD2 ."


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21 Aug 2018 14:35 #22774 by Dtnel

Andy.MacFadyen wrote: You probably won't find anything in the oil bearing debris will have likely been drawn into the screen filter. The engine has driven the equivalent of 10 times around the planet even for a Honda engine that has to be a fair life span.


Well I’ll just tell him the engine is beyond repair. I know he said the oil had got low so I suspect that had something to do with it and my guess is the oil pump is probably weak. I should locate the pressure switch, remove it and hook my gauge up and see what it reads. If any metal filings got sucked up they would affect the pressure as less of a screen to filter oil means less pressure. He did have the oil changed recently. I would’ve loved to have cracked that filter open.

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24 Aug 2018 09:41 #22825 by Tyler
I wouldn't worry about the head gaskets or oil pump. I've never seen either fail on a J-series engine. As long as the replacement engine has reasonably low mileage, came out of a running vehicle, and doesn't look too rough externally, you're likely good to go.

I WOULD consider doing a timing belt kit and possibly a valve adjustment for longevity, depending on how long the owner wants this thing to keep going.
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24 Aug 2018 17:03 #22833 by Dtnel
I think they're actually done throwing money at this vehicle given its age and other things wrong. I sat down with his wife separately and she understands that this van is costing money each time they turn around.

I did get more information from the owner that they'd let the oil run low which is probably a big contributor to the noise (lack of lubrication) so they got their other car in the body shop with a free loaner and are using my 98 Toyota Camry that I'm finally seriously considering parting with if their interested in buying it as it's in great shape for what they need, 2nd vehicle for work and to run the kids to school a mile away. The Toyota Camry has 162k miles on it and has alot of life left in it.

He's not pushing to get his can back anymore so I think I'll let them get past their debacle of getting their main vehicle back with the deductible they owe on that and when they're done I'll talk with them if they're interested in the Camry. I can take money from the Camry and put it with money my father's offering my daughter for her first car and get her something newer.

I have a 04 Hyundai Santa Fe that needs a fuel tank, has a coolant leak, needs water pump and timing belt due to unknown history and a variable timing issue with a good motor and new tires on it that are a year and a half old but haven't been ran in awhile, less than 100 miles I've put on tires.

I can get that running for me as a backup vehicle though the mileage will suck. I have all the parts except the fuel tank

Don't know why text is red but that's odd. I must've bumped a key or something.

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29 Aug 2018 16:31 #22918 by Dtnel
where would I tap into manually check the oil pressure on this 2000 Honda Odyssey with a 3.5 VTEC? The oil light started flashing when I backed out of my driveway last night so I'm thinking that's where the problem lies. I had somebody say once that oil pumps really go bad so I didn't look that direction.

My guess is the oil pump is behind the timing belt? I'm probably going to have to drop the oil pan first to make sure I don't have shavings. I also need to probably clean the oil pump pickup tube or screen whatever it has?

If anyone has did this on this engine before could you point me in the right direction please.

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