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2000 Honda Odyssey 240k miles rough idle. Where to start??

  • Dtnel
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18 Oct 2017 07:31 #13973 by Dtnel
I have a 2000 Honda Odyssey with engine codes p1399 and p0401 which one is EGR and the other is misfire. After doing a little research online I noticed that one of these are known for the intake (egr) possibly needing to be cleaned if you don't get the egr modification done from the Honda dealer. Is this correct?

All I did was pull the codes from the engine I didn't have time to look at the data as the person that owned it was in a rush but just wanted me to grab the codes and see what I can find.

To my understanding the other code has to do with possibly a bad ignition coil(s)

After I told them that there was engine codes they took it to a friend, someone from their ethnic background as they said they speak same language and from same country. They, the neighbors are Sudanese so I have a hard time at times understanding their English but they said their mechanic told them the engine needs to be flushed (I laughed under my breath at first).

I thought this seemed kind of weird being a little bit of investigating I did they have been told it'll cost $200 to get the work done (engine flushed). The neighbor did say going up a hill the vehicle has a hard time doing I found out through the course of this conversation as well.

The misfire code was for all cylinders when I did pull that up I do recall seeing that online searching the code.

I know their mechanic friend didn't hook up to the computer and he's the one who has the shop and wants to flush their engine which from what I understood was by changing the oil.

Yes that sounds fishy but I told the guy maybe we should hook it up to the computer at home here and do some more evaluation of the data and come to a correct diagnosis. HE was more accepting of that but I've come to realize it comes down to money.

I would like to see if I have bi-directional capability to do any testing of the ignition system, etc but first and foremost to get some data from the computer if Honda did much back in 2000 plus I know I also have to keep in mind has this vehicles ECM computer ever been updated, Any possible tsb's that need addressed, etc.

IS there a place to look them (TSB's)up myself?

I do have sure track with my tool which is nice though it's tied in with the tool so no computer access.

I'm not a shop just a neighbor who neighbors come to but I want to do the job properly. I don't think he needs to pay $200 to "flush" the engine or change engine oil if that's the case which it did sound that way the from what the Sudanese shop he deals with said he needed to do. He said they never hooked up to the car either. SCARY!!

Myself, I'd run the other way not fast but really fast and never look back. We have alot of shops here in town but a shortage of good mechanics and even less once you remove the parts changers from the equation.

I quoted him $150 as a rough estimate to clean the egr issue but would rather look up the time labor and give him a better quote for labor. He wants to save some money as it's tight he told me and has another car in another shop that he's trying to get out.

I don't do work without making sure the moneys there to begin with and am fair on pricing as I'm not getting rich but rather helping pay for my tool hobby which has been quite a bit this past year given the trade in of a solus edge and purchase of a modis edge as I want to learn more, specifically to do with electrical in vehicles. I'm surely not putting a debt in the local repair shops (well not at least yet lol) except my work for the last 16 or so years.


Now that the scan tool's paid off (less a larger case I'm looking for to hold extras for diagnosing) with the next repair job I do I'll get Scanner Danner premium I'm thinking. I do keep keep my tool updated but have to do it through the snap on guy as snap on credit says since I don't work I don't have credit so I can't get a subscription there either.

They say I have to work in a shop. Hope I can pay the annual rate instead of the monthly for scanner danner premium as that would be so much easier. Hate month to month bills. To much to keep track of.

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18 Oct 2017 08:43 #13974 by Andy.MacFadyen
When dealing with very high mileage vehicles you have to be careful to keep yourself covered. Fix the EGR clear the codes and see what returns. A Honda with 240,000 on the clock with an uknown number of previous owners is going to have been neglected, if there is an ignition problem there is a fair chance the spark plugs have been in it for 10 years, worn spark plug gaps cause sky high spark KV which can cause coil issues so be extra careful about estimating parts costs. Also keep in ind the 240,00 miles the compression could be down on all cylinders.

"There's always a catch ---- Catch OBD2 ."


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18 Oct 2017 15:37 #13993 by John Clark
P1399 is just a random misfire code and P0401 is insufficient EGR flow. I agree with starting with the EGR passage cleaning. I spend a lot of time on the Odyclub.com forums and I've seen this quite a few times there where the blocked EGR passage can cause driveability problems like misfires. As Andy says there could definitely be more to the problem but that's where I'd start too.

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18 Oct 2017 15:43 #13994 by John Clark

Dtnel wrote: .... Hope I can pay the annual rate instead of the monthly for scanner danner premium as that would be so much easier. Hate month to month bills. To much to keep track of.


The first thing you should do is get the SD Premium, as well as the hard copy of his book. I put it off of for a long time figuring the book would be full of stuff I already knew and probably a waste of money. I finally bought it and after looking through it I signed up for SD premium immediately. The stuff in the book is pure gold, even to someone who thinks they know about cars. I can almost guarantee you don't know what is in that book.

That said, there is no more annual subscription to SD premium thanks to the screwing over that Paul (and all premium content providers) got from YouTube and it's all right here on his website. It's a little less convenient but the videos on SD premium are nothing short of the best out there.

John

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18 Oct 2017 16:08 #13995 by Dtnel
Got a book a long time ago and have my trial code stashed somewhere. I guess if he's hosting his own website, content now it would make it easier for him to accept payments monthly, qtrly, semi annually or annually. I just don't like the fact of recurring payments sitting with my card stored on someone's server given all the stuff out there as it makes me have to do extra working checking credit reports more often, watching bank account activity more often. Yes I pay my bills online each month and have accounts setup online but I just make a payment monthly and some months it may not be the same card/account as I like to keep the finger in the pulse. Another thing that SD should explore is what if a parent of a young kid wants to buy their kid a annual subscription for a gift or a spouse for her husband for birthday or xmas as I know my wife would rather pay once.



Regarding the vehicle I plan on checking each coil externally as if I don't have to open up something at first then I'm doing better as I don't want him to blame me for something.

I could always tell him we could check compression as well so we know the health of the engine in that manner.

He put a reman transmission in it last year as he'd let it run dry so he started checking his oil levels.

I'll definitely do the passageway cleaning first. Yes I thought about going the smaller code number route as I recall reading that somewhere in the past but I'm not sure that would always apply in all situations. Yes it sucks we have to pull the intake to clean that but we could pull his coil adapters and check the plugs first and put new plugs in while we're at it and then check the coils. I do have a scope and still in the learning stages I'm proud to say but that's what will teach me how to do it is getting out there and learning the stuff.

I don't think the intake gasket kit will cost much of anything but as with the ignition checking the plugs may not cost no more than a set of spark plugs. I do have a app enabled scope that will let me look down inside the cylinders and take pictures and video I believe because it's a device I found on Amazon that has a Android app that allows you to record or take a picture and it just hooks up wirelessly to your phone.

So many decisions. I remember when life used to be so simple I think that was back in the 80s and 90s....

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18 Oct 2017 16:09 #13996 by Dtnel
I agree go with the least amount of parts. I just hope the EGR isn't a misread due to something wrong with the ignition system as well as that's where I thought things could get a little sketchy and made me question which direction to go first. Thanks!

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18 Oct 2017 18:35 #14006 by cheryl hartkorn
how rough does it idle? is it a randoom misfire or steady?? also i know a 2000 honda doesnt have individual misfire counters... i wouldnt expect the egr to cause a rough idle for being insufficient flow. Id expect a rough idle if the egr was stuck open... id start by using a spark tester set to 30-35 kv gap see if the coils can jump it. there accessible without intake removable

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18 Oct 2017 18:54 #14008 by Tyler
Personally, I start with the part where the owner said he had a tough time climbing a hill. The load conditions under which it misfires would be key for finding direction.

Personally, I don't see the EGR code and the misfire being related, like Cheryl said. However, if you want to test the theory, you can always unplug the valve and recheck for symptoms. I can't recall if this intake feeds EGR gassed into the plenum itself, or into each individual runner... Also, I seem to remember that the Snap On scanner had an EGR bidirectional test listed, but it doesn't actually work. :angry: I've always had to use a jumper wire to open these valves.

Unfortunately, these can misfire for all kinds of reasons. :silly: Valve adjustment is the first thing that comes to my mind, especially at this mileage. It usually produces a misfire when cold, and elevated MAP readings when fully warmed up. This is something to consider if you're taking the upper intake off to do an EGR passage cleaning, as the intake has to come off to get the valve covers off.

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20 Oct 2017 18:50 #14070 by EricGoodrich
Open the EGR valve at a hot idle. The RPM should drop significantly, honestly the vehicle should die. If nothing happens, the ports are likely plugged.

Plugged EGR will cause a lean misfire during EGR operation. It's possible for misfire codes to set from a plugged EGR system.

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21 Oct 2017 03:24 #14086 by Andy.MacFadyen
I had forgotten Hondas need the valve clearances adjusted --- valve seat recession closing the clearances is a real possibility..
Loss of power on hills is a classic valve issue symptom.

"There's always a catch ---- Catch OBD2 ."


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21 Oct 2017 08:58 #14096 by juergen.scholl
You can look up TSB's (and wiring diagrams) here:

www.bbbind.com/tech_database.html

An expert is someone who knows each time more on each time less, until he finally knows absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
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22 Oct 2017 01:28 #14115 by Dtnel
Thanks as that'll be helpful!

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12 Aug 2018 16:40 - 12 Aug 2018 16:48 #22596 by Dtnel
Ok I'm opening this thread back up. I never got to look at the vehicle before but given it's history I'm really cautious on this one.

The engine has a P0302, P0304, P0305. Sounds like a rock crusher. I didn't check any other codes except engine so far. The previous codes, well maybe I should go check for them.

Just trying to figure out which way to go with this one as ike the engine misfire or EGR route as both can take time.

Only thing I can really understand is the guy says you do engine diagnostics and fix but that could open up a can of worms. He did say " you tell me which part and I go get" referring to him which I don't mind which that's less dollars I have to shell out of my pocket up front.


I'll go check the other systems and see what pops code wise.

Those 3 codes listed for today were the only codes under "engine" heading.


I'll definitely move slow on this one as I don't want to cause myself issues by going the wrong route diagnostically.

Honda's aren't generally something I deal with.

I've worked with my and other Toyota's and GM. I know, I should broaden my horizons.


Here's a screenshot,



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Last edit: 12 Aug 2018 16:48 by Dtnel.

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12 Aug 2018 18:25 - 12 Aug 2018 21:24 #22600 by Dtnel
Here's a freeze frame screenshot from when it initially occurred I'm thinking.

Maybe the #2 is where I need to look first.

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Last edit: 12 Aug 2018 21:24 by Dtnel. Reason: Added freeze frame data

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12 Aug 2018 18:36 #22601 by Tyler

Dtnel wrote: The engine has a P0302, P0304, P0305. Sounds like a rock crusher.


:ohmy: Can you be more specific about the noise?

If it's dead misfiring at idle, then you stand a good chance of narrowing down the offending cylinder(s).

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12 Aug 2018 21:41 #22607 by Dtnel

Tyler wrote:

Dtnel wrote: The engine has a P0302, P0304, P0305. Sounds like a rock crusher.


:ohmy: Can you be more specific about the noise?

If it's dead misfiring at idle, then you stand a good chance of narrowing down the offending cylinder(s).


That's the route I'm feeling I'm going have to go. Going to pull coils for offended cylinders, check plugs. If plugs are good I'll swap a known good coil with a bad one and see if code moves.

I know how to check resistance in general but haven't did it on coils. I think the component tester should have the method is my guess given the scan tool has the component tester built in. Just need to get back in it as I was busy doing much other stuff this summer mainly volunteer coaching Girls Fastpitch Softball which I'm doing at the school level now as our schools aren't sanctioned for softball so it's all volunteers.

Plugs, Coil, Power to coils, EGR possibly? will be the things I check and anything else I think I can find, oh and compression on all cylinders so I can document the readings in case something happens my thought is cover my butt because if given the mileage someone says you replaced this but now my engine blew and decides to try to sue me.

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15 Aug 2018 22:39 #22660 by Dtnel
Ok here's where were at. Had the codes previously mentioned. Erased them, cycled key, added a little gas to the car to get it going, moved all the known bad misfire ignition control modules above the plugs to the known good cylinders. When I did this the 3 misfire codes moved to 2 of the new cylinders they were installed in. A 3rd misfire apparently didn't want to misfire. I did mark the ignition solenoids above each plug so I know which cylinder they came from.

Still need to use the spark tester and ground it to the vehicle ground strap or chassis to verify spark to the spark plugs. Pictures of spark plugs below to.

Ran the car, have audio & video link to my dropbox here of it running,

www.dropbox.com/s/yttpsedxye739ry/Video%...9%2050%20PM.mov?dl=0


I also took cylinder compression readings with about a minute between the 1st and 2nd readings. Had 2 cylinders that would drop pressure to a certain amount then hold. On average it took about 20 seconds for the cylinders reach full pressure. When doing the compression test all the plugs were removed and the fuel pump fuse under the drivers dashboard in the #1 top position removed to percent it from running.

After cylinder compression readings I was able to view cylinder 1 thru 4 before I had to shut down and go coach and came home and it's been rainingoutside since. What I found regarding each cylinder is that the #1, #2 cylinders were dry. #3 and #4 cylinders were both wet looking. I didn't get a peek at the #5 and #6 cylinder due to the rain (car is outside on my driveway).

I will post photos of the cylinder readings, of the dents in the #1 cylinder (possible valve issues?? and maybe more on other cylinders as I saw them same marks on the #2 cylinder). I will be trading my less than stellar borescope (Snap-On) in for a newer model in the morning from Snap-On as well just with the 90 degree camera in addition to the top of the piston. Tools to make things easier for now and the future and he'll give me good money, better than 75% back on the one I've bought from him in the past.

Please add any and all suggestions. I've heard that these Honda Odyssey's or more specifically the 3.5 Vtec engines need to have the valves adjusted? IF this is the case and I can find a good tutorial this is something I'd feel comfortable doing as a good tutorial normally has a good step by step involved.

The plugs are numbered 1 thru 6 left to right. I took multiple photos to show different parts of each plug if possible.

Two of the first 4 pistons appeared like the one with what appears to be the valve marks in the photo that shows that a piston has marks on the top.

2 of the first 4 pistons appear wet as they do in the photo also.

NOTE ON THE compression test of each cylinder it shows that the two that dropped held once they reached a certain point.




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