Guide to Choosing a Scope on a Budget
- StepSide88
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XP isn't supported by Pico Auto and I'm left with their basic software but better product
Pico 2205 2 channel no probes is $200 as of post date
or the
Hantek PC USB 8CH $90 -$120
I expect cheep useless probes with that one but I have probes .
Is the software for the hantec more user friendly to the auto realm than the Pico non-auto software?
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- Andy.MacFadyen
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Hantek have no technical support --- none.
The probes and connectors bundled with the Hantek are actually quite good and would probably cost about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the scope even buying the parts from eBay.
The Pico2000 series aren't sold as automotive scopes which is why they aren't bundled with Picoscope Automotive software, that XP isn't supported by the very latest revision of Picoscope automotive software is different and fairly minor issue.
The non-automotive Pico scopes aren't supported by the automotive software -- although if you do an internet search may find a work around not-sanctioned by Pico who after all have invested megabucks in their automotive software and support.
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- MartinKuliza
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how are you mate, Fellow Aussie here
my name is Martin
Mate, i'm an Electrical and I.T. and Telecommunications Expert
Let me tell you what you should do .
Now.. Your budget is $500 right, AWESOME
Get yourself down to Parramatta road.. EMONA INSTRUMENTS
(78 Parramatta Rd, Camperdown NSW 2050)
buy a Rigol DS1054Z
if you shop around, you'll find it for around $400
i think Emona are doing them for around $500 or close to it
to get a review of this scope.. GO HERE
NOW LET ME GIVE YOU A TECHNICAL LESSON IN WHAT IS IMPORTANT AND WHAT IS NOT AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW BEFORE BUYING A SCOPE
Let me only address 3 Models of Rigol Scopes
DS1000 Series Specifically DS1052E
DS2000A Series Specifically DS2072A
DS1045Z
ok, so here's the deal around 10+ Years ago
Rigol Brought out a Scope.. DS1052E.
now... it was around $800 AUD, a Bloody bargain considering.
Now before i go ahead
let's address some TECH SPEC points
BANDWIDTH = The difference between the Highest frequency and Lowest Frequency
The DS1052E had a Stock standard Bandwidth of 50MHz
this means that you can measure ANY SIGNAL up to 50 MHz, However if you wanted to measure a signal that was 60 MHz, the scope would not recognize it
what you need to consider here is.......
What sort of work are you going to be doing vs what scope do you need.
NOW.. for Automotive work, the Pico scopes don't go above 20 MHz, so basically pick what you want
but keep in mind if an engine produces an abnormal frequency above 20 MHz, YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT. so it helps to have More bandwidth
and... THERE'S A TRICK HERE and i'll get into that later
also as a standard guide, don't get anything lower than 100MHz
CHANNELS : Basically this means, how many signals do you want to look at simultaneously.
Look... I've got a 2 Channel Scope, I've had it for 5 years, Never needed anything more.
2 is fine for a beginner, 4 is better, but i doubt you'll use more than 3 at any given time.
SAMPLING RATE : here is the simplest way to understand this
1. Sampling Rate is measure in SAMPLES PER SECOND (Sa/s)
2. That means..... Imagine you have a Volt meter
Now imagine you want to measure the Power in your wall outlet (240 V AC) ok.
Now imagine You want to get regular readings so that you could see CHANGE OVER TIME.
Now imagine that you decide you will take 1 READING PER SECOND... got that.
that would be called "A Sample Rate of 1 Sa/s" 1 (Sample Per Second)
got that
ok, so
The PicoScope 4225 has 400MS/s (Mega Samples Per Second) Mega = 1 Million
so what
The Rigol DS1052E, as a minimum has 1GSa/s (1 Giga Sample per Second)
Giga = !,000 Million Samples per second
now is this important.. YES
Why is it important
well. when you take a SHOT of a waveform and freeze it for analysis
if your scope has 400 MSa/s vs 1 GSa/s
and you want to zoom .. RIGHT IN and really see what's going on.
it's going to look really squared off and really shit,
so, if you are viewing a SINE WAVE , which is supposed to be rounded off.
if you have a bad sampling rate, the rounded peaks will look like Sharp Triangular mountains.
Trust me, you don't want this
but.. it does depend now whether you are zooming in or not
i have found that a High Sample Rate is invaluable
My scope has 3GSa/s
i feel that 1GSa/s is a minimum , even with Automotive, because at 1 GSa/s you won't miss things that a scope at 400MSa/s will miss
MEMORY DEPTH - ok, ... so the best way to explain this is this, the More Memory depth you have the deeper your scope can zoom in, it's really that simple
a Low memory depth would be 28 Mpts (Mega Points) 52 Mpts is good
BEYOND THIS, YOU PLAY WITH YOUR SCOPE AND YOU FIGURE IT OUT
now back to the story of the 3 scopes
so.... the DS1052E was made by Rigol as an Entry level BUDGET SCOPE that was pretty well built and well priced
ok... that's great (do not buy this scope)
WHY ???
well. if you shop around , you'll find it for around $350 - $450
Remember
it has
2 channel Input
50 MHz Bandwidth
1GSa/s Sampling Rate
and a pretty small screen that no one ever liked
BUT, you can get the DS1054Z for around $400
the specs of the DS1054Z are
4 Channel input
50 MHz Bandwidth
1GSa/s Sampling Rate
12 Mpts Memory Depth (upgradeable to 24 Mpts )
and a bloody huge widescreen display
so why bother with the other one
I saw a guy on Gumtree 2 days ago... hehe
he's selling his DS1052E for $460
Clearly he wants to get rid of since it's around 6 years old and he wants to upgrade to a brand new DS1054Z
who can blame him
lastly , i own a DS2072A
2 Channel input
70 MHz
3GSa/s
56 Mpts Memory Depth
and the same size screen as the DS1054Z
at the time of buying it
it was a choice between the DS1052E for around $800
or fork out $1,100 for the better one
i went for the better option, and i see now (5 years later) if i had taken the other one, I'D REGRET IT
NOW... YOU CAN THANK ME FOR THIS LATER
You know how i said that the DS1052E with the small screen
has 50MHz Bandwidth
but you can pay Emona instruments or Rigol to upgrade to 100MHz ?
and you'll probably pay a few hundred dollars for it
WELL. YOU CAN DO IT FOR FREE. hehe
HERE'S THE TRICK
rigol have been sneaky about this
Rigol decided that in order to cut costs, they would create a DS1000E Series and ALL OF THE SERIES WOULD BE THE SAME SCOPE........ Exactly the same one
The only difference is.....
the bandwidth is limited by software
aparently when you pay , they insert a USB stick and it runs an Encryption key which then UNLOCKS YOUR SCOPE TO THE FULL 100MHz
so with the DS1000E
this was just a matter of going to You Tube and getting the key from someone because they were all the same
HOW STUPID.. huh
as if someone's not going to share it around
so they stuffed up with that
then on the DS2000A (my one) that came stock standard with 70MHz,
but UPGRADEABLE TO 300MHz
you bet your arse i did hehe
however, this time, it's not as simple as just a key, it's an encryption algorithm
i had HARDWARE VERSION 1.0
and this would only work on Version 1.0 or 2.0
the current version is 3.0
WHAT HAPPENED WAS THIS
a bunch of guys using Logic analyzers , Accessed the ROM chip internally and found that rigol were being sneaky again
and they didn't build a new scope for the 300 MHz model but instead limited the software
so, long story short, it was cracked and a software solution was released to everyone who had a scope
Rigol caught on and Released HARDWARE VERSION 3.0
which
a) Stops you from rolling back to version 2.0
b) does not allow the encryption program to run
hehe.. Smart arses
BUT, IF YOU GET THE DS1054Z
a) it's the cheapest bloody thing on the market right now
b) Everyone is going nuts over it, Mainly because it has 4 Inputs
c) YOU CAN UPGRADE IT AS FOLLOWS. FOR FREE, AND IT'S EASY TO DO
50 MHz bandwitdh up to 100 MHz after upgrade
12 Mpts Memory depth Unlock up to 24 Mpts Memory depth
The sampling rate stays the same
you can also unlock higher functions that i won't go into
it's really cool stuff
Bottom line
Spend like $400 - $500 on a kick arse scope that will outmatch any of the Pico, hantek, Vellerman and the rest of the Automotive ones
it's my understanding that the mechanics like to use the FLUKE 123 Scopemeter.
now.. Fluke is a kick arse brand.. no question
but , these handheld scopes and PC Powered scopes are built pretty poorly to be honest
and if they have Frequency Aquistion, i can assure you it's Software based calculations, it's not Hardware Aquisition (big Difference)
so.. yeah. Much cheaper scope and does more
what more do you need ?
Hope that helped you pick a scope and understand the basics of it
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- Secondwind
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- bruce.oliver
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If you are a technician and do a lot of diag or want to do a lot of diag, just buy a pico. Yes it is more expensive, but it is so much better than even a snapon scope. But think about this, how much was your toolbox? Youll spend $10k+ on a box but complain about spending $2-3k on a scope kit. When you get the pico set it up on a smaller box or cart, that way it is always ready to go, you will use it more that way
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- the cogster
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- Andy.MacFadyen
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Thr alternative is to buy an x100 attenuator for coils and an x10 for normal gasoline injectors.
" We're trying to plug a hole in the universe, what are you doing ?. "
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- Andy.MacFadyen
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wes p wrote: I found a cheap power probe like the p100 on line for 60 dallars I havnt used it yet but I been studying sample rates . I think snapon samples at 200 times per second I had bought a dso pocket scope similar to that one ,gave to my son in Sweden everything high dallar in Europe. I suppose be great for checking for signals but not fast enough to catch fall outs or spikes on intermittents. but u got the old ford Wiggle test for grounds and opens.
200 samples per second is a graphing volt meter a useful tool but not a scope , actually most automotive work can be done with a fairly low spec scope, although my own scope samples at 100gs/s I would trade most that speed for memory depth which is one of the many areas Pico scores top marks. Where Pico falls down is it is tied to a Notebook/Laptop. Hand held and tiny palm sized scopes including the uScope and DSO Nano are super handy for working away from base or when working under the dash.
The cheapest scope I have seen that I think could do useful work is USB scope called the "SimpleScope" it is made in the Ukraine it occasionally appears on eBay and sells in £20/25$/22 Euro price I think I will buy one just to see if it could be a useful tool.
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- MuhammadAli89
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Im giving more value to Launch over Verus because Launch allowed much extra access to resets.
Give your suggestion please
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- bruce.oliver
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I was thinking about getting a Pico 2204a, but shipping and customs is a big issue. But since the hantek works ok with two channels, I'll probably just wait.
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- Andy.MacFadyen
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A faster scope not only collects more data points but each data point is an average of x number of readings. My own scope is rated at 1giga Samples/second and 100mhz bandwidth. I truth each channel will only give 1/4 of that but compare that 25mhz with the performance of the Hantek 1008. The 1008 also lacks filters in the software so any high frequency noise can be an issue -- the easy answer to is to make a simple low pass hardware filter that connects between the scope and the signal you looking at.
Having said all that the Hantek 1008 is quite useable tool but with major limitations. Hantek make better scopes although like most Chinese made oscilloscopes they have major limitations and the software has limitations.
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A friend picked up a 6074 scope & it kept locking up on him. I tried it out & it locked up the two computers that I tried it on also. He returned it.
If you do pick one up, make sure that you get from someone that has a good return policy. Don't buy from over seas. Return shipping can be cost prohibitive.
You can download & install the Hantek software & run it in "demo" mode. Limited, but gives you an idea of what it can & can not do.
Avoid the 1008 scope. It is an OK 2-channel scope, but after that it falls on it's face. Don't know what they were thinking making it an 8 channel scope.
The kit's that Hantek sell are pretty nice, for the price. A lot of leads & adapters for the money. Cables are of surprisingly good quality. Avoid their amp clamps, they are as cheap as they come.
I've had a DSO-3064 scope for more than five years & it works OK. There is hope.
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www.hantek.com/en/ProductDetail_13_10163.html
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www.picotech.com/discontinued
Can a decent discontinued 4ch usb scope be picked up cheap?
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SailorBob wrote: What about some of the discontinued Pico models:
www.picotech.com/discontinued
Can a decent discontinued 4ch usb scope be picked up cheap?
Used PicoScopes come up for sale from time to time. Automotive scopes usually go for a premium or are overpriced to begin with. Watch out for Manufacture specific scopes that were sold to dealerships. They only run on the software that is supplied to the dealer & will not run on the generic PicoScope software that is available for public download.
There is a guy on Ebay that keeps trying to sell the same bare 2 channel automotive PicoScope. He has "sold" it several times in the last year & ends up relisting it several weeks later. I suspect that the scope is being returned when the buyer finds out that it wont work with the newer software. He is vague in the description & very selective with the pictures. He doesn't show it in the pictures, but by the model number, the scope is from a Toyota dealer. I contacted PicoScope about this & this is the response that I received:
"Hello Arbez,
All the Toyota branded TIS Techstream 4223-12 and 4423-12 Picoscope's are sold to the dealerships only, not the techs. Therefore I wouldn't suggest purchasing it, as it should not be for sale and is likely stolen.
Also, the Toyota PicoScope's came with Toyota specific PicoScope software which is downloaded through a subscription to Toyota's Dealer Technical Information System.
Regards,
Richard Boyd"
~~~
Non automotive Picoscopes are available, but don't work with the special automotive software. If you do chose a non automotive scope, make sure the spec's of the scope will do what you need. Some of them have low voltage ranges (maximum of 5V) & many other limitations. You have to know what you are looking at. The automotive scope is built for automotive use, so the ranges are exactly what you need them to be.
If you are just starting out the Hantek scopes are a good choice. When I bought my Hantek scope, 5+years ago, I thought I would outgrow it & move up to a PicoScope. Here we are 5 years later & I still use it all the time. Yea, the software stinks, compared to the Pico, but is still very usable. If you are up for a little more of a learning curve, the Hantek is a reasonable choice at 1/10th of the price.
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- Andy.MacFadyen
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Link to Auto Ditex Youtube Channel Link to Auto Ditex Youtube
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www.scantool-direct.co.uk/ditex-shop.html UK Agent
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