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Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?

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13 Jul 2017 21:29 #11126 by pickle
I know nothing about scopes but I would like to learn and I'm looking at the Hantek 1008c. I want to look at the secondary ignition on my old MGB. will the Hantek do the 4 spark traces in order like in this photo capture from a scanner danner video?

Adrian
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14 Jul 2017 00:14 - 14 Jul 2017 00:17 #11128 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
Yes it will show what we call a spark parade, but how much detail it will show I am not sure.

You can do it by simply clipping the supplied DIS HT probe to the HT lead from the coil to the distributer but that won't synch to the firing order. To get the capture synched to the firing order without buying another DIS probe you would need to connect the DIS probe to #1 cylinder and set that as a trigger and another channel to the ignition primary through a 20:1 attenuator.

With the Hantek 1008 the processing power is shared between channels so the more channels you use the less detail you get, I haven't got a capture of a spark parade from a DIS system using the Hantek 1008 but I posted one in another forum for a Rover K 1.8 shared plug top coil system showing ignition pimary current ramp and the secondary voltage and it shows the Hantek's limitations. For your B you would only need half the length of screen of that capture to show one complete 4 cylinder capture ie 2 revolutions of the crankshaft so you would get more detail.

As an former MG owner (ZB, TF1250 and chrome bumper B ) I have spent many hours fiddling with twin sU carbs and worn out Lucas distributers. I would be really interested in in any capures you get.

The sparks on this caputure are reversed polarity so the spark looks odd because it is inverted.

" Welcome to the 21st"


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14 Jul 2017 06:21 #11129 by pickle
Thank you Andy! I have a chrome bumper B, a 58 MGA and a split bumper MGB GT. Neat that you had so many MGs yourself. My distributor isn't worn out and I'm running a single SU HIF6 on the B. I also run a homebuilt supercharger setup off a Chevy Cobalt. (Eaton M62)

I'm wanting to see how accurate the spacing is between firings. I run an Accuspark points replacement module and a CB Performance Blackbox ignition computer. It replaces the mechanical and vac advance. I machined the distributor shaft smooth so there is no imbalance from the counterweight base anymore.

There has been some concern about points modules giving inaccurate spark spacing and I'd like to check it for myself. I think I can make a new magnet ring on my laser cutter if the thing is off.
For detail I'm wondering if I could just view a single spark trace at a time. I'm not in a hurry.

As it takes about a month to get one of these Hanteks out of China, I'll order an attenuator and an extra HT lead just in case.

Thanks again,
Adrian

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14 Jul 2017 07:20 #11132 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
Check what is bundled with the scope some Hanteks come with the DIS probe and the attentuator.
If you have converted to the solid distibuter shaft it should get rid of most of any timing variation. You should be easily able to measure the spacing between spark events and dwell time with the on screen rulers. Connecting to the ignition primary is a really useful way of checking the ignition dwell time.

If you use the DIS probe on an individual cylinder the slope of the firing line is useful indicator of air/fuel ratio, this could give you a way of checking the fuel distribution between cylinders sharing a siamesed inlet port.

You might also want to consider getting a current clamp as this can give you a very quick and easy way of checking not only the coil but just about every other electrical item on any car.

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14 Jul 2017 08:50 #11133 by pickle
Thanks again! I ordered the 1008c an attenuator and a second ht probe. Should be here in a month or so.

Adrian

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12 Aug 2017 09:42 #11842 by pickle
My scope has arrived and I've loaded the software. I now need to hook it up to my car and take some readings. I want to do as you say here: "To get the capture synched to the firing order without buying another DIS probe you would need to connect the DIS probe to #1 cylinder and set that as a trigger and another channel to the ignition primary through a 20:1 attenuator." I think I understand where to connect the DIS probe(#1 plug wire?)But I am not sure where to connect the second probe with the attenuator. Does the second probe get connected to the coil HT wire voltage?

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12 Aug 2017 09:43 #11843 by pickle
Forgot to mention ... I have 2 DIS probes.

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12 Aug 2017 10:51 - 12 Aug 2017 10:52 #11853 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
Fairly easy to do put a DIS probe on channel 1 and put it on No1 HT plug lead, put the other DIS probe on the HT coil lead. Use No1 as the trigger that way you will get a parade of all for plug wire secondary HT voltages in the firing order on Channel 2.
Setting the trigger voltage is just a matter of dragging the trigger indicator at the edge of the display up or down untill you get a steady waveform displayed after that just alter the Time Base and voltage untill you get a nice parade of secondaryHT voltages.

The voltage waveform for No1 cylinder will look slightly different between Channel 1 and Channel 2 --- that is beause you have a distributer ignition and the spark has to jump from the rotor arm to the segment on the cap.

As your first interest is spotting any variations in ignition timing between cylinders you want to use the vertical (X axis Time) cursors to measure the time difference between each spark.

With the Hantek 1008 it is best to start with one of their pre-set setups from the "Auto" (ie Automotive) test menu other wise you will spend half an hour just turning 6 of the 8 channels off, I don't have the Hantek software loaded on this Netbook otherwise I could talk you through it better.
It is best to ignore and turn off the Hantek example waveforms/

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Last edit: 12 Aug 2017 10:52 by Andy.MacFadyen.

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12 Aug 2017 13:21 - 12 Aug 2017 15:13 #11862 by pickle
Moderators note Something went wrong with this post when I was replying sorry :(


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12 Aug 2017 15:10 - 12 Aug 2017 16:28 #11873 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
Okay decent capture --- it is upside down because of the coil primary (12v) polarity I don't know your ignition system but this may or may not be correct for your ignition system modern coils terminnals are marked + and - normally the control (what used to be the contact breaker ) connection is - .
On most oscilloscope scopes you can flip the display over to make inverted patterns easier to under stand -- but not the Hantek 1008

With a ignition parade pattern you look for a cylinder that dosen't fit in with the rest ---- look at the forrest not the trees, in this case one of the cylinders has lower voltage than the other three. This sugest a spark leaking to ground or a bad or fouled plug or the the spark plug gap closed up or low compression there isn't enough detail in the capture to make an informed guess as to which.
What you need to do now is look at the cylinder on it own ---- first capture a good cylinder in closer detail then capture the suspect cylinder with the same the settings.

" Welcome to the 21st"


Last edit: 12 Aug 2017 16:28 by Andy.MacFadyen.

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12 Aug 2017 15:54 - 12 Aug 2017 15:55 #11878 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
You have got a really useful caputre ---- I download the image and looked at it zoomed in --- it really looks like a spark jump to ground -- distributor cap, plug lead or plug I could only guess at. One other thing I noticed is on the good cylinders the secondary (HT) has a lot of energy left over at the end of the spark --- what spark plug gap are you running ? standard 0.025" (0.625mm) it could be you could open the gap up more.

This picture is the classic "good" spark at normal idle

This is explains some of the features







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12 Aug 2017 16:05 - 12 Aug 2017 16:06 #11879 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
This is the inverted spark actually from a more recent MG a modern TF 135

Inverted polarity sparks can be difficut to get your head round but after a while it becomes easier.

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12 Aug 2017 16:13 #11880 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
This is your capture flipped using good old MS Paint

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14 Aug 2017 09:23 #11945 by pickle
Thank you Andy! This is very educational.

I'm having trouble with the Hantek software and my window 8 laptop. The software hangs, skips , jumps and generally acts weird. I'm going to have to sort that out before I can get anything useful I fear. I'll try a spare XP desktop or I also have a spare windows 7 machine. Any advice from your experience with this software would gratefully welcomed.

There seems to be no way to measure anything. I think maybe my laptop is too wimpy to run this device?

The engine is currently idling at 12:1 f/a ratio and I'm running 25 thou plug gaps. I did notice the large amount of ringing. Wondered if it could be related to the rich mixture burning easily?

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14 Aug 2017 09:26 #11947 by pickle
I did discover I can flip the display but it does not stay flipped if I record the trace. I can do image captures with it flipped.
I triple checked the wiring and I have it wired as instructed. The CB Blackbox must be flipping the display. The coil is wired per standard MG practice.

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14 Aug 2017 10:37 #11949 by Andy.MacFadyen
Replied by Andy.MacFadyen on topic Will the Hantek 1008C show 4 spark traces at once?
It should work Okay on windows 8 Hantek software version 1.0.8 works okay on 8 and 10 but won't flip the display.

The way to measure Time periods and Voltage differences is to use the cursors This shows how to measure the dwell time, most oscilloscope cursors work in a similar way so if you learn it o the Hantek it will be the same if you ever decide to upgrade.
You could probably open the the plugs gaps out especially if you are using Platinum or Iridium plugs --- try 0.035" this should put more of the coils energy into the spark without causing issues.










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26 Aug 2017 18:01 #12350 by pickle
It looks like my laptop isn't quite good enough to run the software. I tried a desktop I have and it wouldn't even show a trace. I'm bit stuck now as the the desktop meets the requirements Hantek give. So does the laptop. The laptop really struggles. It freezes etc.

Not sure what to do now. I'll contact Hantek and see what they say.

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