Renault Clio III 2007 1.6L 16V no O2 sensor signal

albertdrake wrote: During that period was that I sent injectors to the lab for cleaning thinking of a leaky injector or something (car was giving low mileage and some gas smell)

Even good injector may go bad after some cleaning procedures :blink:

Fuel trims with hose connected:

1200rpm: drive.google.com/open?id=0B5tO7ldKqnssbFNwWnE1dzhtSFU

2000rpm: drive.google.com/open?id=0B5tO7ldKqnssQkhKWkxyYlM2dzA

3000rpm: drive.google.com/open?id=0B5tO7ldKqnssZThEc0VSZzNNTW8

Idle after revving at 3000rpm: drive.google.com/open?id=0B5tO7ldKqnssNEF3MkdXdE9NMW8

Not sure it relevant/conclusive, but I did pay attention to MAP readings at cranking to see if it would show pressure increease but nothing. (Thinking about some possible cam timing issue):

drive.google.com/open?id=0B5tO7ldKqnsseFJ0LUxCZUdleVU

And again, evidence of high revs improving the situation (notice the long term at about -10% increasing in reaction to downstream voltage reading decrease (it's usually above 750mv).

drive.google.com/open?id=0B5tO7ldKqnssMDU1RVhjZGtVWWs

I still have to verify on the throttle body tests you asked for. Just have to be careful not to mess with it's calibration because I don't have a scan tool to trigger the reprogramming command.

WelI I was expecting on your test where you raised the idle to see as soon as it was off idle control the problem got a lot better but it didn't match the other times where the trims where great , I cant exsplain why it's changed
Check out the throttle like we said and do the pulling and pushing while watching your trims like I said it's worth the check I think and when you get a chance tell us about the cambelt change I was unsure what you ment by tree?

(Damn, I had written a detailed story on the cam belt change only to have my session expired. Hate it when it happens! Here it is again...)

Cam tree = I meant camshaft.

So I had to perform the cam belt change due to the water pump leaking coolant at the gasket. Bought original distribution kit, and a friend who has a locking tools kit and had performed the procedure in his car (same Renault K4M engine) helped me.

We did the procedure according to the manufacturer manual step by step. Locked both camshafts horizontally in the right position with the tool, set the screw stick used to lean the engine on TDC, locked the flywheel, and released the belt. We put the water pump, new belt, tension pulley, and when the new belt was tight, we noticed one of the camshafts (exhaust one if I recall) had turned a bit... enough to barely bend the locking jig.

So we unlocked and did the engine turning test by hand, and we heard/felt something inside the engine hit. We did the turn by hand as slowly as we possibly could.

So we redid the entire procedure from scratch: loosen the tension pulley, turned the engine so both camshafts were in the indicated position, marked a reference on a flywheels teeth, and locked it from behind where the CKP sensor goes. However, this time, since the camshafts notches didn't exactly matched anymore in the horizontal position, we had to slightly turn back the exhaust one so we could fit the jig and the belt would fit in the camshaft's gears teeth.

We set the belt, applied the indicated tension, unlocked everything after inspecting the marks at the flywheel+camshafts and everything seemed in place this time. Performed the engine turning by hand test 3 times and the engine turned freely this time.

So after reassembling everything back, I started the engine and everything seemed fine... except for the "Antipollution anomaly" message at the dashboard.

I've had one of those before that went away after cleaning injectors, throttle body, coolant change (total drain) and a few kms of driving.

So I don't recall the exact order, but after the cam belt change, I have done: injector cleaning at the lab, replaced two coil packs, throttle body cleanup, and the warning disappeared after about 50km driving.

Only thing noticeable was that cylinder 4 injector showed some dirt around its gasket (didn't quite smell like fuel), and its nozzle was dirty, unlike the other 3 injectors. Had it tested and cleaned at the lab and all four showed fine.

And it was just after the warning disappeared that I noticed the O2 signal problem appeared. First on the upstream, which I replaced, and then at the downstream (which I also replaced).

And here we are now... you kind of know the rest of the story.

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I still have to check the throttle body plate. Been twisting and pushing around and no visible effect whatsoever yet... will report back as soon as I get something on that as well.

Thanks Chris!

Oh yes the timed out message such a pain !!!
I now highlight the text before submit and click copy so if i loose it I can go into the message box and click paste so you don't torture yourself :blink:

So we had the Renault Megan's 1.4 2003 and that takes the flat metal locking plate on the end of the cams and does the same with the crank ( rests on crank pin inserted ) I always think it would be easy to not have all the slack on the tenshioner side and rotate the crank if your not careful without noticing

From hearing this story boy does it look like this could have been the cause ,the only thing is can I relate that to killing your 0/2 s ? Unburnt fuel is often the killer for them , (how many miles has she got )mmmm not sure but I would be doing a leak down test for sure after hearing that

The thing is you should be able to get that a tooth or 2 off without hitting a valve so how far off was it ??

Yeah, learned to do so before posting already the hard way

Well, I couldn't say in number of teeth, I just recall seeing one of the camshaft markings off by about 8 degrees off the horizontal line (horizontal being 0 deg) immediately before doing the engine rotation test.

Oh and it has 97,000 km.
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So I will still do the throttle test just in case and also doing some research on other possibilities such as EGR valve not opening/closing as it should, the remote chance that I might have connected one of the hoses that go behind the intake manifold in the wrong place, etc.

I will also do some research on what and how to do a leak down test.

I am now convinced that the O2 signal issue was caused by one of the misfire codes I wasn't able to read with the cheap scan tool and not because of any physical damage to the sensors nor a wiring problem.

Oh and not sure if related or not but I found a very small crack on the thermostat housing that leaks very little coolant. It requires replacing the housing but I wish I could solve the big issue before changing it.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a shop or technician who knows how to perform and correctly interpret "advanced tests". The guy that has helped me with this scan tool seems to have some experience but doesn't seem very knowledgeable on many of the things I've seen on Danners channel.

And... do you think I should change the oil anyway?

Will report back as soon as I get some test result.

Again, Chris, thank you very much for your patience.

One thing I didn't realise you have an egr valve on your car !there not on the euro ones here .. an egr fault will defiantly play with fuel trims and performance for sure ,we need to activate it to see if it's working correctly

If I've had a car with misfires and I've got rich running I'll always give a oil change as a rule normally as you don't know when it was last changed , you could do with a dipstick though are they not easy to get hold of there ?

Is your egr valve electronic or vacume operated ? If it's is opened at idle it should nearly stall the car out if passengers are clear , a stuck open egr I would guess would create a rich issue , sorry we only really see egr on diesels over here

Original or compatible parts are hard to find here in Cancún. This Clio iii was the last model they imported from France before they started selling Dacia models. Ive yet to ask at the dealer and I looked for a coulple of options on eBay.

I did some checking on the throttle. Plate feels firm, and it certainly responds with a "snap" when I activate. At idle it seems barely open (forgot to take photos! -- I can do it again if you think it's useful), it's still clean from the last cleanup I gave it, and it's current limits are 12.5% at idle, and 89% at WOT (they're well within spec).

Also, even with the engine vibration, readings are steady at idle and I try to push slightly while idling and plate feels firm.

So, you think it's a good idea to put new oil asap? I didn't want to jump to that thinking the old oils would be useful for diagnosing.

And yes, it has an EGR (electronic), which I activated with the techs scan tool (definitely heard it "clicking", but that doesn't mean it is not leaking gases or something. I'm still studying how it works so I can properly test it.

What do you think?

If you activated the egr the car should stumble and almost cut out! if not then it needs looking at as it's not working correctly , had I known it had an egr I would have said to activate it before to check it operates correctly . If you activated and it only made a noise but the engine stayed the same I would remove it and check the passages are clear on both sides danger as a few good videos on blocked egr

Regarding oil ,I would change it but probably you can wait untill the leakdown check , no point putting oil in if you may have to pull engine apart but definitely look at egr first

The engine was off when I activated it with the scanner. You think it's ok if I change the oil and test the EGR?

Or should I test the EGR before changing the oil?

Will try to visit techs shop in a few hours today...

Change the oil any time before or after but when you go to the garage if the car doesn't just about cut out when at idle and activating the valve ,take the valve off and blow through it when turned off and if you can get some air through it this is part of your problem for sure !

Will do sir!

Fingers crossed...

Update:

Went to shop looking to perform the leak down test. No luck with that.

The tech boss was there, I exposed the case and he said a leak down test is not definitive in my case (I still think he was avoiding doing it because they don't have the equipment).

Interesting thing is: he thinks is a miss in the timing set up, he asked if the engine was VVT to which I said not because the engine everywhere says 1.6L 16V.

HOWEVER, there is a camshaft dephaser solenoid valve in the engine, and reading in the manual its job is to adjust timing depending on the engine load so the engine performs its best.

Is that something to consider testing? And how?

Manual says: "a stuck open electrovalve provokes an unstable idling, high manifold pressure at idle and important engine noises when working" (my translation).

(Honestly, I already had accepted the idea of have the engine open by the shop to inspect both timing and if nothing indicates a missed tooth, open the cylinder head to check for a bent valve or blown head gasket).

What do you think?

Sorry for late reply been a busy weekend , what happens with the egr valve testing ?

Another post gone missing I suppose.

Tried to activate the EGR with the scan tool with the engine running but the scanner didn't allow that. So I unmounted the EGR to blow in it and it seems to be fine: no air passes through...

Oh ok I thought that was going to be the problem , still worth unplugging electrically just incase there's a short and it's open although I thought it would have been a partially stuck open valve but worth the check . It will give you a fault code so you may need to delete afterwards

So I didn't realise your car had vvt the 1.4 I worked on didn't but I would have thought the cam sensor would have given a code if the phaser was stuck one way as I'm guessing the phaser is on the inlet cam and guessing again that you have a cam sensor on that cam , I do know that the 1.2 I have has just a tdc sensor( I think the call it )so no crank sensor but clearly it's the later generation engine

There is no doubt after tell me about the issue you had doing the timing that I though we could well end up here but had hoped it was your egr and an easy fix .

I think I would unplug the vvt solenoid valve and check fuel trims at idle , just incase electrically it's activated when it shouldn't be , I'm guessing yours is a palse width modulated signal to the valve ,an oil control valve to the phaser .I am guessing again but would think there's little adjustment at idle with a warm engine , it could also be removed and cleaned ,

So the next step I think if I was you would be to pop the covers off and see if the cams still line up with the tool and the crank still rested on the pin that you insert , you mentioned about bending the can locking tool ? How did that happen , I can only think you could do that if you where tightening the can dephaser to cam with the tool in ? ( there's often and extra tool you need to hold them other than the flat locking tool ) or if you tighten the crank with it in and not the crank pin although again the pin shouldn't really be used to hold the crank for tightening there's a tool that goes on the flywheel teeth . It would be good to think about what could have happened before going to far

I already took the vvt valve out once, it wasn't dirty or anything. It has a mesh that acts as a filter which I cleaned.

Have to disconnect it though to see if that makes any difference in the idle.

Regarding the timing job: I did all of these locking procedures with the indicated tools. Only thing that didn't match was the screw hole for the camshaft locking tool, so I had to make my own to screw it in place.

The tool got bent apparently during the belt fixing step. I struggled putting all belt teeth in place and the tensioner pulley was a pain to screw.

On the second round everything seemed to line up. At least after the 2-3 engine turns to verify nothing hit inside. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised to see the camshafts not lining up when uncovered...