[FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

Tyler wrote: OK, getting somewhere! No power at pin 2, but you DO have power at pin 4, pink/light blue wire, at the ignition switch in crank? If that's true, then you're looking at an open wire between the ignition switch and the starter relay.

I only have power going to pin 1 during crank. When the engine is off all pins are not showing power.

But when I put power to pin 3/4 with the Power Probe the car starts up again. So I guess from the end-side control of starter relay to the starter motor is good. It's just the stuff before pin 3/4 to the fuse that is off at the moment. I even have weird voltage drop(during crank) between fuse and starter relay.

Tyler wrote: Any remote start, or other wiring messed with in the steering column? If not, then you're down to tracing that circuit 'till you find the open. The OE diagram shows C104 in between the ignition switch and the relay, I'll see if I can locate that tomorrow. If you could get to that connector easily, you could probe it and tell which direction to look for the wiring problem.

No remote start and I didn't touch any wiring inside the steering column. Just one day after replacing fan and radiator, the car stopped working. I live in Alberta, Canada and when it happened it was around December.

Thanks for the help though. I will check out the diagrams again as well.

c0astl|ght wrote: I only have power going to pin 1 during crank. When the engine is off all pins are not showing power.

But when I put power to pin 3/4 with the Power Probe the car starts up again. So I guess from the end-side control of starter relay to the starter motor is good. It's just the stuff before pin 3/4 to the fuse that is off at the moment. I even have weird voltage drop(during crank) between fuse and starter relay.

OK, so we need to pursue the ignition switch (or the wiring), then. There should absolutely be power at pin 2 at the starter relay during cranking, and there isn't.

Earlier you mentioned checking the ignition switch - are you positive you had power at the pink/light blue wire?

If you wanted to prove that missing power at pin 2 of the starter relay is the problem, you could plug the starter relay partially into it's socket in the TIPM and touch pin 2 with a test light connected to B+ with the key in the crank position. This will simulate the power feed from the ignition switch, and the engine should crank.

Tyler wrote: OK, so we need to pursue the ignition switch (or the wiring), then. There should absolutely be power at pin 2 at the starter relay during cranking, and there isn't.

Earlier you mentioned checking the ignition switch - are you positive you had power at the pink/light blue wire?

Yes. I checked that pin like 10 times. Every time the pink/blue wire lit during crank. Since no power gets to pin 2 I believe it is a wiring problem with the ignition switch as even the wires leading to ground for the ignition switch were corroded (in the picture I provided earlier. They are all blue).

Tyler wrote: If you wanted to prove that missing power at pin 2 of the starter relay is the problem, you could plug the starter relay partially into it's socket in the TIPM and touch pin 2 with a test light connected to B+ with the key in the crank position. This will simulate the power feed from the ignition switch, and the engine should crank.

Definitely I will do this wire jump as well if it doesn't start tomorrow.

I just soldered on new wires into a new eyelet:





Tomorrow I will put everything back together and see if it starts normally. The new wires are much cleaner than before. This has to work.

im confused. first you said you had power at pin 2 then nothing coming out of the tipm. the last post you said you only had power on pin 1 which comes from the tipm, then nothing on pin 2 from the ignition switch. that means the tipm is good. did you try swapping relays? in one post tyler noted you had all the things for the relay to work.

cheryl hartkorn wrote: im confused. first you said you had power at pin 2 then nothing coming out of the tipm. the last post you said you only had power on pin 1 which comes from the tipm, then nothing on pin 2 from the ignition switch. that means the tipm is good. did you try swapping relays? in one post tyler noted you had all the things for the relay to work.

I will show a picture to illustrate:



The test light grounded:

- lights up both fuses. Both fuses are good.
- lights up the red wire going into ignition switch and the pink/blue wire going out of the ignition switch. Ignition switch seems good.
- does not light the red/blue wire going to starter relay (pin 2) from the ignition switch. There are corroded grounds for the ignition switch.

Now on the other side, the test light grounded:

- lights up pin 1 of the starter relay only when cranked.

Tyler said this is normal for pin 1 to only light during crank for the Chrysler TIPM. So it seems the starter relay is good.

The problem is somewhere between the ignition switch and the starter relay.

It had to be those grounds. Right now it's late to put everything back together outside so tomorrow it should all work (knock wood).

c0astl|ght wrote: I will show a picture to illustrate:

...

It had to be those grounds. Right now it's late to put everything back together outside so tomorrow it should all work (knock wood).

Thanks for this, sir! I'm sorry, I really don't mean to nag so much. :lol:

The grounds... I agree, that ground you found didn't look great, but that still wouldn't prevent power getting from the ignition switch to the starter relay. As far as I know, there's nothing 'intelligent' about the ignition switch that'd require a ground to operate.

Tyler wrote:

c0astl|ght wrote: I will show a picture to illustrate:

...

It had to be those grounds. Right now it's late to put everything back together outside so tomorrow it should all work (knock wood).

Thanks for this, sir! I'm sorry, I really don't mean to nag so much. :lol:

The grounds... I agree, that ground you found didn't look great, but that still wouldn't prevent power getting from the ignition switch to the starter relay. As far as I know, there's nothing 'intelligent' about the ignition switch that'd require a ground to operate.

No please don't be sorry! I welcome your feedback!

I'm the student here and it isn't worth advising me if I do not listen. Your feedback is important.

I'm grateful to everyone for helping me!

I just hope the grounds fix the problem. If not I will use your suggestion as well as Cheryl's suggestion from earlier tomorrow when I put everything back together.

This has to work though. This car has been out of commission for 3 months and I've been working on it for about 1 month and a half.

Tyler wrote: No, that's good! That means the TIPM is supplying power to the load side of the starter relay when desired (during cranking). That B+ output is controlled by the TIPM itself, and is NOT a constant feed.

Well the engine did not start with the new soldered connections. I put everything back together and am going to do the tests you and Cheryl suggested. My mom is coming back and we will do some of those tests.

Just to clarify though, the B+ output is the same location as the fuse right? I don't see any other outlets on the TIPM.

Thanks again.

cheryl hartkorn wrote: are you getting a ground from the pcm on pin 5? when in start thatd tell you the inputs are good and the pcm is happy. put the key in run position take a jumper wire and remove the relay from the box and jump terminals 1 and 4 see what happens. the motor should crank

Hi Cheryl. It worked! Thank you.

With the starter relay out and a wire between pin 1 and 3/4 of the relay port the car started.

Sorry I couldn't do these tests earlier. I had the TIPM already out when you made this suggestion and I was in the middle of soldering a new eyelet for ground G104. Now everything is back together.

I guess that means my starter relay port is working though. Now it's probably still the ignition side that's at fault.

I'm trying to find ground G201 related to the ignition switch on the PT but that will take some time. I found all the other grounds related to the ignition switch (G100, G102, G104, G105). I re-soldered G104 as you can see in the picture above (going to redo it again with better eyelets this time). I cleaned up G100, G102, and G105.

Now to find G201. The last ground related to the ignition switch. This one is a bit tricky to find.

It has to be this last ground hey?

c0astl|ght wrote: Just to clarify though, the B+ output is the same location as the fuse right? I don't see any other outlets on the TIPM.

I'm not positive I understand the question... The B+ output comes from the TIPM, yes, just from a solid state device on the circuit board. There is no fuse for the load side output, as far as we're concerned. Aside from the circuit board itself

With the starter relay out and a wire between pin 1 and 3/4 of the relay port the car started.

Sweet! That clears the load side of the TIPM.

Now to find G201. The last ground related to the ignition switch. This one is a bit tricky to find.

It has to be this last ground hey?

Could you post the diagram you're using to find the grounds? Just so we can follow your line of thought.

I'm still not convinced it's a ground issue. We know there's power coming out of the ignition switch (it's working), but it's not getting to the starter relay. There's some kind of poor connection in between.

If you wanted to prove this, you could run a jumper (or several chained together, as needed) from pin 4 at the ignition switch to pin 2 at the starter relay. OR, just use a test light connected to B+ on pin 2 of the starter relay with the relay partially installed. Either way, the engine should crank with the key as normal.

Tyler wrote: I'm not positive I understand the question... The B+ output comes from the TIPM, yes, just from a solid state device on the circuit board. There is no fuse for the load side output, as far as we're concerned. Aside from the circuit board itself

So how do I find B+ on the TIPM? If I place one end of the test light on pin 2 of the starter relay, does the other end of the test light touch the B+ terminal? Can't find the B+:

Tyler wrote: Could you post the diagram you're using to find the grounds? Just so we can follow your line of thought.

I'm still not convinced it's a ground issue. We know there's power coming out of the ignition switch (it's working), but it's not getting to the starter relay. There's some kind of poor connection in between.

Well it's good the load side of TIPM of starter relay is good. More of a relief and can focus backwards now.

I have alot of wiring diagrams that are related to the ignition switch so let me know if you would like all of them (like 10 pages). But here are 2 of them:






Is it possible that with my fan out of the car it is also stopping the car from starting? I got 2 relays on that fan when I took it out.

I think tomorrow morning I will reinstall fan and clip it back into the circuit.

I will also get a test light between pin 4 of ign. switch to pin 2 of starter relay tomorrow. I see what you mean now.

c0astl|ght wrote: So how do I find B+ on the TIPM? If I place one end of the test light on pin 2 of the starter relay, does the other end of the test light touch the B+ terminal? Can't find the B+

Ahhhhh OK, I getcha now! You can clip the test light any B+ source you can find, doesn't necessarily have to be on the TIPM. The battery itself would be easiest.

I love your test light drawing, BTW Better than anything I could do.

I have alot of wiring diagrams that are related to the ignition switch so let me know if you would like all of them (like 10 pages). But here are 2 of them:

I forget that OE diagrams like to break stuff up like that. :blush: Not that OE diagrams are bad!

So none of those grounds go directly to the ignition switch, then? Then I think you're safe to skip the ground checks and go directly to the ignition switch wiring. A problem with any of those grounds is not going to prevent the ignition switch from working.

Is it possible that with my fan out of the car it is also stopping the car from starting? I got 2 relays on that fan when I took it out.

I think tomorrow morning I will reinstall fan and clip it back into the circuit.

I will also get a test light between pin 4 of ign. switch to pin 2 of starter relay tomorrow. I see what you mean now.

You know, I've been trying to put the fan/radiator thing together with this symptom ever since you mentioned it, and I've got nothing so far. :blush: I thought about the starter solenoid wire getting damaged, but we now know that isn't true, since you got it to start by bypassing the starter relay.

If needed, we can try to ID relays that came out with the fan. I've done fan replacements on older PT Cruisers, but none of those had any relays attached. This newer one may be different.

I think we're close to the solution on this one.

Tyler wrote: Ahhhhh OK, I getcha now! You can clip the test light any B+ source you can find, doesn't necessarily have to be on the TIPM. The battery itself would be easiest.

I love your test light drawing, BTW Better than anything I could do.

Ok ~ ~ ~ I get it now! Lol. I'm such a noob. So B+ is just anything positive on the circuit. The battery. :lol:

Thanks. My drawings is not too bad.

Tyler wrote: So none of those grounds go directly to the ignition switch, then? Then I think you're safe to skip the ground checks and go directly to the ignition switch wiring. A problem with any of those grounds is not going to prevent the ignition switch from working.

Yea with all the diagrams I checked under the ignition/fuel system wiring, nothing goes directly to ground. It seems to go through the PCM/anti-theft first.

But I might have some bad news. Hopefully I didn't short the starter relay port because now putting a wire between pin 1 and 4 won't work anymore. It did earlier this morning when I went to test again and then decided to take a shortcut and place the wire between pin 1 and 2 of the starter relay to send power to 2 and see what happens. Nothing. Then I went back to pin 1 and 4 and now it wont start.

I think I just blew something up in there by going 1 to 2. I could redo 1 and 4 again but is this something to worry about?

And I put the fan back in all connected and still nothing.

If the ignition switch is at fault, that would be strange because I tested like 5 or 10 times and the power does go in and out the ignition switch. The power coming out somehow doesn't reach pin 2 of the starter relay. Probably wiring but I'm at a loss. I just cleaned all grounds I could find and replaced 1 of the grounds. Still one more ground to find though. Still can't find it. Could it still be possible the ignition switch is bad even when power goes in and out?

Anyhow, thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it.

c0astl|ght wrote: But I might have some bad news. Hopefully I didn't short the starter relay port because now putting a wire between pin 1 and 4 won't work anymore. It did earlier this morning when I went to test again and then decided to take a shortcut and place the wire between pin 1 and 2 of the starter relay to send power to 2 and see what happens. Nothing. Then I went back to pin 1 and 4 and now it wont start.

I think I just blew something up in there by going 1 to 2. I could redo 1 and 4 again but is this something to worry about?

And I put the fan back in all connected and still nothing.

Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it.

Really? :huh: Shorting between pin 1 and 2 of the starter relay shouldn't have fried anything...

Now that you've got the fan back in, can you go back over the starter relay pins with a test light? As always, we want power on pins 1 and 2, and ground on pins 4 and 5. Relay out, key cranking. Get back to me with those readings, and we'll go from there!

Tyler wrote: Really? :huh: Shorting between pin 1 and 2 of the starter relay shouldn't have fried anything...

Now that you've got the fan back in, can you go back over the starter relay pins with a test light? As always, we want power on pins 1 and 2, and ground on pins 4 and 5. Relay out, key cranking. Get back to me with those readings, and we'll go from there!

Alright. I checked the starter relay with the test light again.

With engine off I checked for grounds and got a green light for pin 4 and 5 only. I didn't crank the engine and check again (which I should have done). I also noticed that with the engine off and checking grounds for pin 4 and 5, pin 5 shows a dim light while pin 4 is bright.

With engine off I checked for power and got no power at any of the pins of starter relay. With the engine cranked I got a red light for pin 1 only (not as bright as pin 4 showing green).

So in hindsight I forgot to crank during ground test only to check the lights again, but my assistant/mom is gone now. I'll have to find a new assistant or wait till she gets back today. But so far it seems like I haven't fried anything as everything is the same as before as far as ground lights and power lights lighting up.

im with tyler im not convinced its a ground issue. if it were me id go back to the ignition switch on the pk/lb wire pin 4 pierce that wire or t pin what ever to get contact with the voltage that comes out of the wire in the start position. use a jumper wire all the way to the fuse block to the relay pull the relay out partially and connect the jumper wire to pin 2. jump in car crank the key and it should start and run. then either run a new wire or find the open.

c0astl|ght wrote: Alright. I checked the starter relay with the test light again.

With engine off I checked for grounds and got a green light for pin 4 and 5 only. I didn't crank the engine and check again (which I should have done). I also noticed that with the engine off and checking grounds for pin 4 and 5, pin 5 shows a dim light while pin 4 is bright.

With engine off I checked for power and got no power at any of the pins of starter relay. With the engine cranked I got a red light for pin 1 only (not as bright as pin 4 showing green).

So in hindsight I forgot to crank during ground test only to check the lights again, but my assistant/mom is gone now. I'll have to find a new assistant or wait till she gets back today. But so far it seems like I haven't fried anything as everything is the same as before as far as ground lights and power lights lighting up.

OK, I like those readings! Well, it sounds like we're still where we were before, anyway. Seeing power on pin 1 makes me feel a lot better. :lol:

I dunno if it'd help at all, but you can watch this ScannerDanner video for possible ways to do the testing yourself. The video is technically about a transmission problem, but the methods for testing the relay itself are still applicable.



Not trying to rush you or anything! I just know how much I hate waiting around for an assistant.

Tyler wrote:

c0astl|ght wrote: Alright. I checked the starter relay with the test light again.

With engine off I checked for grounds and got a green light for pin 4 and 5 only. I didn't crank the engine and check again (which I should have done). I also noticed that with the engine off and checking grounds for pin 4 and 5, pin 5 shows a dim light while pin 4 is bright.

With engine off I checked for power and got no power at any of the pins of starter relay. With the engine cranked I got a red light for pin 1 only (not as bright as pin 4 showing green).

So in hindsight I forgot to crank during ground test only to check the lights again, but my assistant/mom is gone now. I'll have to find a new assistant or wait till she gets back today. But so far it seems like I haven't fried anything as everything is the same as before as far as ground lights and power lights lighting up.

OK, I like those readings! Well, it sounds like we're still where we were before, anyway. Seeing power on pin 1 makes me feel a lot better. :lol:

I dunno if it'd help at all, but you can watch this ScannerDanner video for possible ways to do the testing yourself. The video is technically about a transmission problem, but the methods for testing the relay itself are still applicable.

Not trying to rush you or anything! I just know how much I hate waiting around for an assistant.

Thank you Tyler and Cheryl. I can't thank you enough.

I'll also check grounds again during crank.

I've got a feeling the problem is between the ignition switch and the starter relay. We'll find out soon.

Thanks again!

Oops. I mean I will try your suggestion Tyler and stick back probe into ignition switch and other at the starter relay pin 2.

Alright. Thanks for the video.

Looks like this might end in the same way as the video. I'm hoping not because I will have to go thru wire harnesses - which I have no experience in. That may have to go to the dealership...

So I did the wire jump test again from pin 1 to 4 and I got the car to start.

I also wrapped some wire around my starter relay and pushed it in partially to pin 2 (red/blue) of starter relay port and took the other end of the wire and stuck it to the ignition switch pin 4 (pink/blue) with the back probe in while engine cranked. Car started! That was amazing!

So I'm thinking it's a wire between ignition switch and the starter relay now.

Funny thing is now I found a green light on pin 1 of starter relay with engine off (connected to ( + )) using the test light.
But when I put the test light to the same pin with the engine cranked changing to ground ( - ), I see red light for power (which is still normal for test light grounded).

So I don't know if that is something to be concerned about.

Also my ground eyelet I previously repaired is now on a new ground sharing it with another eyelet. Lost the bolt during re-installation. Fell down somewhere. Is this okay? No harm sharing ground with another eyelet right? While the eyelet was sharing new ground I did these tests and the car still started.

So it's safe to say the wiring is the problem hey? between the ignition switch and the starter relay.

c0astl|ght wrote: I also wrapped some wire around my starter relay and pushed it in partially to pin 2 (red/blue) of starter relay port and took the other end of the wire and stuck it to the ignition switch pin 4 (pink/blue) with the back probe in while engine cranked. Car started! That was amazing!

Sweet! :woohoo: Very happy to hear this. Not only does it prove a wiring problem, but it also proves that nothing got harmed earlier.

Funny thing is now I found a green light on pin 1 of starter relay with engine off (connected to ( + )) using the test light.
But when I put the test light to the same pin with the engine cranked changing to ground ( - ), I see red light for power (which is still normal for test light grounded).

Are you using an incandescent test light, or some kind of logic probe? Power Probe? :huh: Nothing wrong with those at all, just trying to make sense of your observations. Where are you seeing the 'green light'?

Also my ground eyelet I previously repaired is now on a new ground sharing it with another eyelet. Lost the bolt during re-installation. Fell down somewhere. Is this okay? No harm sharing ground with another eyelet right? While the eyelet was sharing new ground I did these tests and the car still started.

I think you're OK? As long as your connections are solid, then I don't see a problem.

Looks like this might end in the same way as the video. I'm hoping not because I will have to go thru wire harnesses - which I have no experience in. That may have to go to the dealership...

No way! You can totally handle this. Check it out:



This is what we're after. C104, a connector that has our suspect wire in it. I'll do some research tomorrow and find where C104 is, exactly. Once we find C104, we can test for power there during cranking (with the jumper wire removed). If we find it, that tells us to work towards the starter relay. If we don't, that tells us to work towards the ignition switch.