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[FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

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12 Feb 2017 21:09 - 13 Feb 2017 11:17 #5713 by c0astl|ght
Hi,

Thanks in advance to Scanner Danner for allowing me to post my question here. I appreciate it.

I have a 2009 PT Cruiser that will not start. Only starts during bypassing of ignition system.

Well I did the same testlight diagnoses from the video, "How to troubleshoot a starting system (bad ignition switch) - Dodge Neon" on youtube for my mom's PT Cruiser and found that my test light did not light on any of the starter relay ports. Only when I cranked the engine did one port light up - which was the hot wire side. Which is strange. It should be lit all the time even with the engine off.

The ignition swtich wire going in was lit with engine off and during crank the wire going out of ignition switch was lit. So it seems ignition switch is functioning, yet the starter relay port connected to the ignition switch didn't light during crank (I think the wires in-between splice and something is messed up).

Is this a case of a bad TIPM or ground in TIPM or is it the starter relay port issue?

Feedback appreciated. Thanks.
Last edit: 13 Feb 2017 11:17 by c0astl|ght.

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13 Feb 2017 17:47 #5737 by cheryl hartkorn
Replied by cheryl hartkorn on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09
im kinda confused? pin 2 on the relay is supposed to only be hot with the key in start position. those Chryslers are bad for the lock actuator for breaking in the column.

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13 Feb 2017 17:48 #5738 by Chad
Hot in crank/start looks to be normal.

"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."
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13 Feb 2017 20:12 #5752 by Tyler
Thanks for the diagram, pole71! B)

So, just to be clear, you only have one power feed at the relay with the key in the crank position, correct? By hot wire, are you referring to the load side of the relay (pin 1), or the control side (pin 2)? Just want to be sure about what diagnostic direction to send you in!

Also, did you happen to try connecting your test light to B- and look for grounds at the relay? In the crank position, there should be two - one from the PCM for relay control, and one through the starter solenoid winding (if the winding is intact).

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14 Feb 2017 12:38 - 14 Feb 2017 13:06 #5794 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

Tyler wrote: Thanks for the diagram, pole71! B)

So, just to be clear, you only have one power feed at the relay with the key in the crank position, correct? By hot wire, are you referring to the load side of the relay (pin 1), or the control side (pin 2)? Just want to be sure about what diagnostic direction to send you in!


Yes the load side does not light with a test light (grounded) when engine is off but does light when engine is cranked. Something wrong there.

If that is the case it points back to the TIPM. Possible bad ground for TIPM?

The picture is showing a no crank position using a test light:



Tyler wrote: Also, did you happen to try connecting your test light to B- and look for grounds at the relay? In the crank position, there should be two - one from the PCM for relay control, and one through the starter solenoid winding (if the winding is intact).


The "B-" terminal as in from the starter motor? Should I be testing voltage drop from there to the relay grounds? I am going to check all grounds today.
Last edit: 14 Feb 2017 13:06 by c0astl|ght.

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14 Feb 2017 12:44 - 14 Feb 2017 14:05 #5795 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09
I've checked the actuator. It is still intact inside ignition.

The starter runs.
Battery is good.
Alternator seems to be fine.
Cables are good.
All the grounds Iv'e checked are good. Still have to look at more hidden grounds though way in the back of the car.
Ignition switch seems good. Power goes in and out the wires.
Starter relay clicks and has continuity.
I can bypass ignition system by taking a screwdriver and touching B terminal and S terminal of starter while key is turned to start car -
or I can use Power Probe to power yellow/grey wire of starter relay port (in diagram I provided) with key turned to start the engine.

I think it's a bad ground with TIPM or Starter Relay port. Still gotta find all grounds.
Last edit: 14 Feb 2017 14:05 by c0astl|ght.

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14 Feb 2017 14:25 - 14 Feb 2017 14:33 #5796 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09
Thanks again for taking the time to read this.

I think I found the problem. The ground G104 seems to be very corroded. I don't know how I'm going to get in there:





I guess I'll have to depressurize the fuel system and remove those fuel lines blocking the way to G104. My wiring diagram is showing the ignition switch grounded through the powertrain module control (the antitheft/ park/neutral switch) - which leads to G104. I'm pretty sure that is the reason why my car is not starting.

Anyone know the name of that terminal that is holding the corroded wires together? I may need a new one.

If I cannot remove the fuel lines, would anyone suggest a wrench that can get into places like that?

Thanks again! :D
Last edit: 14 Feb 2017 14:33 by c0astl|ght.

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14 Feb 2017 17:05 #5797 by cheryl hartkorn
Replied by cheryl hartkorn on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09
are you getting a ground from the pcm on pin 5? when in start thatd tell you the inputs are good and the pcm is happy. put the key in run position take a jumper wire and remove the relay from the box and jump terminals 1 and 4 see what happens. the motor should crank
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14 Feb 2017 18:04 #5800 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

cheryl hartkorn wrote: are you getting a ground from the pcm on pin 5? when in start thatd tell you the inputs are good and the pcm is happy. put the key in run position take a jumper wire and remove the relay from the box and jump terminals 1 and 4 see what happens. the motor should crank


Yes pin 5 on the pcm does show ground. That's one more thing confirmed as good. Thank you.

I will try out your suggestion with pin 1 and 4, but right now I took out the TIPM.

Would you know how to depressurize the fuel system? I cannot find the fuse for the relay pump according to a 2006 manual when my moms' car is a 2009. If I could depressurize the system I could get to the ground wires that are all corroded. I think that is the source of the problem.

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14 Feb 2017 18:56 #5801 by cheryl hartkorn
Replied by cheryl hartkorn on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09
id pull the asd relay and crank it over bypassing the system the way you did. but honestly id just unhook it with a rag over the line if it were me.

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14 Feb 2017 19:01 #5802 by cheryl hartkorn
Replied by cheryl hartkorn on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09
if the g104 were bad I would expect to have ,more problems as it shows on the diagram I have its a pcm main ground so id expect a no communication ac compressor not working, radiator fan and a few other things that share that ground
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14 Feb 2017 19:03 #5803 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

cheryl hartkorn wrote: id pull the asd relay and crank it over bypassing the system the way you did. but honestly id just unhook it with a rag over the line if it were me.


I've got a "ASD Relay Contact PWR Feed" fuse # 18. Is this the one?

If I unhook the line and quickly get a rag in there, will the fuel still drip out of the rag constantly since it's still under pressure? Won't I get a huge spray from the initial disconnect?

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14 Feb 2017 19:21 - 14 Feb 2017 21:42 #5805 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

cheryl hartkorn wrote: if the g104 were bad I would expect to have ,more problems as it shows on the diagram I have its a pcm main ground so id expect a no communication ac compressor not working, radiator fan and a few other things that share that ground


I just replaced the fan and radiator for 1600 at the dealership. 2 months later car won't start. Not going back to the stealership.I think the fan still works though. I took it out, however; got me to the starter. :D

I don't know what else to look at. There are grounds G201 and G105 which is inside and Instrument Panel and Side Cowl Panel. Don't know where they are yet. But if I can just go around cleaning grounds that could solve some problems.

It's strange that pin 1 of starter port is not lighting with test light with engine off. It should be always light. So the problem goes back to the TIPM. Possibly a bad ground.

Measuring voltage drop from ( - ) battery terminal to pin 1 starts with:
0.13 v no crank
12.07 v with crank.

Yet there is the TIPM and ignition switch that also share voltage with the starter relay, so how could pin 1 get almost all the voltage from the battery during crank? It should have less volts. I also got about same volts measuring from the ( - ) battery terminal to the fuse inside TIPM during crank. Since the voltage from the ( - ) battery terminal to fuse is almost equal to voltage drop from ( - ) battery terminal to starter relay, that means I got a bad ground somewhere.

And those are not fuel lines over my hands in the pic are they? I think someone just told me they are AC lines. :huh:

I am a noob.

Do you know how to get to the Instrument Panel and the Cowl Panels? Could you tell me what these things would generally be?

Thanks.
Last edit: 14 Feb 2017 21:42 by c0astl|ght.

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15 Feb 2017 19:29 #5842 by Tyler

c0astl|ght wrote: Yes the load side does not light with a test light (grounded) when engine is off but does light when engine is cranked. Something wrong there.


No, that's good! That means the TIPM is supplying power to the load side of the starter relay when desired (during cranking). That B+ output is controlled by the TIPM itself, and is NOT a constant feed.

Cheryl is on the right track with the relay testing. I see you found a ground at pin 5 (from the PCM), sweet! If you also have a power on pin 2 with the key in crank, then the relay has everything it needs to work.
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15 Feb 2017 20:19 #5854 by Noah

c0astl|ght wrote: Thanks again for taking the time to read this.

I think I found the problem. The ground G104 seems to be very corroded. I don't know how I'm going to get in there:



If I cannot remove the fuel lines, would anyone suggest a wrench that can get into places like that?

Thanks again! :D

Check out the wrenches I posted in this thread.

"Learn, apply, repeat."
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15 Feb 2017 21:34 - 15 Feb 2017 21:45 #5861 by c0astl|ght
Replied by c0astl|ght on topic [FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

Tyler wrote: No, that's good! That means the TIPM is supplying power to the load side of the starter relay when desired (during cranking). That B+ output is controlled by the TIPM itself, and is NOT a constant feed.


That sounds good but I saw the video from ScannerDanner on troubleshooting the ignition system on the Dodge Neon and he mentioned that the hot wire has to light the test light at all times.

But if it's a different case for the Chrysler TIPM that would be great! I don't have to worry about a starter relay port defect.

Tyler wrote: Cheryl is on the right track with the relay testing. I see you found a ground at pin 5 (from the PCM), sweet! If you also have a power on pin 2 with the key in crank, then the relay has everything it needs to work.


The thing though is during crank I have no power going to pin 2 during crank. Yet the ignition swtich is lighting for power coming in and out of switch. So I checked the grounds for the ignition switch and it led me to G105 (the one with the corroded eyelet with the picture showing) that seems to be the problem for the start failures.

Currently I got in there with a flexible wrench (thank God I found one) and had to clip the eyelet because I couldn't pull it out far to clean it. I'm going to add new extension of wires by soldering extension wires and then soldering all extensions to new eyelet. That should do the trick.
Last edit: 15 Feb 2017 21:45 by Tyler.

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15 Feb 2017 21:56 #5864 by Tyler

c0astl|ght wrote: That sounds good but I saw the video from ScannerDanner on troubleshooting the ignition system on the Dodge Neon and he mentioned that the hot wire has to light the test light at all times.

But if it's a different case for the Chrysler TIPM that would be great! I don't have to worry about a starter relay port defect.


Ah yeah, I see why that's confusing! Yeah, the TIPM works differently - it's on the CAN network, and uses a high side driver for the starter relay when it gets the right message over the network.

c0ast|ght wrote: The thing though is during crank I have no power going to pin 2 during crank. Yet the ignition swtich is lighting for power coming in and out of switch. So I checked the grounds for the ignition switch and it led me to G105 (the one with the corroded eyelet with the picture showing) that seems to be the problem for the start failures.


OK, getting somewhere! :cheer: No power at pin 2, but you DO have power at pin 4, pink/light blue wire, at the ignition switch in crank? If that's true, then you're looking at an open wire between the ignition switch and the starter relay.

Any remote start, or other wiring messed with in the steering column? If not, then you're down to tracing that circuit 'till you find the open. The OE diagram shows C104 in between the ignition switch and the relay, I'll see if I can locate that tomorrow. If you could get to that connector easily, you could probe it and tell which direction to look for the wiring problem.

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