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1992 Cadillac Deville 122,700 miles , EGR & EGR Solenoid Troubleshooting

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14 Mar 2019 07:12 #27805 by Dtnel
This Deville has the 4.9 Engine, it's not the Northstar engine.

Runs rough the more you accelerate according to my friend who's been driving it as it's his older mother's car a shop put all new injectors in recently but I don't get their reasoning except either $$$ or the parts cannon as I was looking at it less than 5 minutes and noticed the EGR and EGR solenoid appeared to have had a line in the past that went to them, maybe from the solenoid to the valve?

On these engines is there a way to use a vacuum pump to test the EGR valve? I haven't did EGR work thus far but I do have a vacuum pump with gauge, multimeter and labscope. I'm sure there's got to be a way to check the electrical on the solenoid and check the EGR valve test wise and visual inspection?

The guy did say there's a strong odor of gas as well and the higher the speed the more it seems to stumble when it does. I briefly looked at this one a year or so ago but then the vehicle was gone as he got another one to drive but I don't think that'll be the case this time as on his Ford Ranger he cracked the number 3 piston which they tried to tell me he needed a starter replacement on but I found the starter was operating just fine after removing and bench testing it and back on the vehicle as well.

Also there's another line, maybe vacuum type or something that goes 4-5 inches and has a bolt in it and does nowhere.

I will add photos as those are the best evidence. I haven't pulled any codes yet as he was so sure he wanted his alternator replaced and his blower motor that he went and bought the parts and they were there. He was even pissed enough that he took a drill and drilled a 3/16 hole right into the blower motor back side because he was pissed that it quit working. I don't understand some people's logic but this is a special type of person so I just go with the flow at times as I'm just trying to help a friend out and sometimes he realizes that he screwed up we will see once I get the vehicle running again as I change the alternator already and I'm winning to get this blower motor wrapped up. In the meantime while doing the blower motor I noticed these other things I was also doing alternator when I noticed them as well.

Please see the attached pictures and you will see what I am referring to.

Oh, I might want to add I pulled the dipstick for the oil and there's no oil level reading but he does want me to change the oil on it so I'm thinking about pulling the plug for him because I'm curious to see what I will find inside the drain pan. It's kind of like that mystery meat you get at McDonald's or Arby's and you just kind of wonder about.









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14 Mar 2019 07:29 #27806 by Dtnel
I've also read some of these issues could be related to the TPS - Throttle Position Sensor? IF so does anyone have the GM/Cadillac test procedure.

It's been hit and miss with doing diagnostic stuff lately so if the component tester portion of my scan tool has these testsI need to figure out if I can use the Wireless scan module as the OBD port is in the middle just above the floorboard in the hump.

I do have a 90 degree adapter that can plug in but also when I look the vehicle up it shows that I need the OBD 1 GM powered adapter that you'd normally use for reading from a OBD 1 port and I was worried that if I plug the compact scan module with the 12 volt OBD powered adapter that it could damage the compact scan module?? Don't want to ruin a $1800 scan adapter and snap on tell me I broke it.

I don't have any hard wired scan tools. I only have the Autel TS-608 and the Snap-OnZeus which I'm slowly slowly learning the Zeus when I can but that's hit-and-miss as I have other things going on in life as well and this is more so hobby stuff.

I do have a Pico scope but that's still sitting brand new in the box one and a half years as I never got it out and got it set up as I want to dedicate one laptop to that with a dual boot hard drive that way if I go to t i s web there's no compatibility issues with Windows 7. I'm giving some of that some forethought for setting up the laptop to save further work when I add other things to try such as either a Dongle for drew tech or a J-Box which I'd eventually line to learn as well. Yes I have a lot on my plate they want to learn.

I'm thinking I need to give up coaching softball that way I can focus on little things like this but that will have to wait one to two years as I just committed to this upcoming season and if the girls stay I told them I will Coach one more year and after that I will be done after seven or eight years of coaching.

If anybody has any information the TPS or the above post that would be greatly appreciated and I thank you in advance.

This vehicle has been a pain in the butt and I don't understand why a shop with throw 8 injectors in the vehicle when I'm finding all this other crap wrong with it including a ground from the engine valve cover hold down Bolt 2 the firewall next to the blower motor that they use a household electrical twist connector to join the wires.

I will be pulling that off later as well as I want to make it a good connection but also I don't understand why they did that because when I change the alternator there's a very good ground from the alternator melt to two different areas on the engine and it is in very good shape and intact

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15 Mar 2019 08:53 #27830 by wacoeagle
EGR probably disconnected because its bad., if its leaking air into the engine could be a problem . you can take it off and make a block off plate out of an aluminum can to seal it off. ... those melted looking wires might go to the coolant temp sensor, if the coolant temp sensor thinks the engine is running cold it gives too much fuel!!! look for any vacuum leaks you can find and fix them. a coolant thermostat sticking open can fool the coolant sensor too.
carburetor clean those throttle butter flies.
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15 Mar 2019 09:12 #27833 by wacoeagle
think of an EGR system as an engine parasite. it does NOTHING to make the engine run better. all it does is when engine gets to higher speeds, it opens a portal from the exhaust system, sucks some of the ALREADY BURNED fumes from the exhaust, and routes them back into the intake system of the car to try and reburn any unburned fuel, (which doesnt exist).. this was a big bullshit the car manufactures did to try and apppease govt tree huggers in the 80s. its like this.. you are a jogger and run behind a line of big diesel trucks trying to breathe, and you have to breathe all of thier exhaust gas.. EGR = engine getting robbed!!
An engine likes oxygen rich air to burn with fuel , not already burned fumes. some would argue you get better gas mileage with EGR, I never saw any proof of that. if u make a block off plate and forget abt it thats one less problem your going to ever have to worry abt on the car.. just my opinion. some states u might fail emissions if they see it.
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15 Mar 2019 09:17 #27835 by wacoeagle
also why 3/16TH hole in the blower? 1/4 inch is much more common??
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16 Mar 2019 06:26 #27868 by Dtnel
I don't know this guy's thought process as I've known him coming up on three years and I think our friend relationship that developed is going out the door and I answer the phone less often because now it only seems that he calls when he wants something fixed. More often than not especially lately he's trying to talk me down with pricing which is surprising because he claims to be a business owner for painting but I know he is only did a couple jobs this winter because I think he would rather sit around and smoke you know what with his girlfriend and play mr. Big shot though he don't even have money to pay rent.

he's good enough friends with the guy that he lets him or I should say his daughter stay there because he don't have big enough you know what to get his daughter to behave as he had her living with him and his girlfriend and his girlfriend's daughter but that relationship went South so he rented a place to put his daughter over there to keep his girlfriend happy.

My honest opinion, the guy doesn't have his priorities right because if he did his relationship with his daughter would be the top or the top two things and that's when your factoring your relationship with God as well.

It's funny his girlfriend puts Family First but she won't let him put family first when it comes to making sure his daughter is where he's living which is over at their girlfriends house 95% of the time.

I plan on rapping this deal up, and keeping my distance as much as possible. Only so many hours in a day and I have so much other things I could be doing to get done including my own stuff. I think I'm going to tell him that if he keeps trying to talk me down and prices that I will just not do business with him anymore because of the fact and if he doesn't have enough money to pay me but has enough money to buy you know what then why are you trying to talk me down and prices.


I don't understand how you let your girlfriend argue with your own daughter right there in front of you let alone at a sporting event in front of all the parents that are there from the school.

That's another unfortunate Flipside is I am the daughters sports coach and volunteer coach at the school and have had to deal with this at school sporting events but they are not school sanction meaning in our state the state doesn't endorse girls softball fastpitch level.

Sorry about going off on the ram I'll just some things really bother me with people but I'm slowly starting to get away from this issue.


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16 Mar 2019 06:32 #27869 by Dtnel
No emission in this state so once we check those other things this may be something I'll suggest to him. Thanks!

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16 Mar 2019 09:14 #27871 by wacoeagle
whats the daughter look like? decent? maybe some french benefits to be had? hell if hes stoned and his car is running, use it to take her out for refreshments?

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19 Mar 2019 04:11 #27919 by Dtnel
I'm 46, married, the daughter friends with my daughter in school and I coach her as well as 11 other young women in sports. I wouldn't think of it on the going out for munchies part. Not my thing and people go to jail for that. Not me!

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07 Apr 2019 16:25 #28493 by Dtnel
Not sure if it's EGR. Gonna check tonight as I've educatedmyself some more but probably not enough yet but here's what's the latest on this. Begging for help ...



OK haven't been able to get ahold of this vehicle lately. The owner called me up this morning and I will look at it this evening. He did say with the controller for the HVAC system he can adjust if it's in the floor run defrost in the temperature but he can't adjust the speed

If my memory serves me correct you have to use that same controller to pull the codes? As I've said before I normally don't deal with OBD 1 and I know plugging into the vehicle isn't possible with my adapter configuration based on the fact that it's down low in the center of the floorboard. I will need to look at it and see if I even have the proper connector to adapt to my OBD adapter and if it's even possible because I know my five OBD scan tools are all OBD2 so I would have to use the method that's described in the sticky


So onto the vehicle the owner said he went and put 3 gallons of premium gasoline in it yesterday and went for a drive and it started acting up. He said when they were on their way back it was so bad that they were hobbling along and cars were passing them left and right because they couldn't get their speed up. He said that according to the fuel system it's using way more fuel than normal.

I asked him if it seems like it's flooding or when he presses the throttle if it bogs down and he said yes he also said it seems like the floodgates have open when you press the accelerator.

I told him I did figure out after the fact from pictures I had posted last time in a thread on this forum I believe that the throttle body was pointed out by somebody as needing cleaning. If I didn't post it here it was probably over on scannerdanner.com forums as I know I posted about the vehicle there as well.

With him describing the term the floodgates opened it makes me wonder if it could be a throttle position sensor, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, bad EGR valve or bad EGR solenoid.

Being that the injectors were replaced by a shop that had it for 2 weeks and that was the only thing they said they could find at the time the injectors have been replaced so those can be ruled out given they put the correct size ones in there which I'm sure they did but why would they replace all the injectors and still not fix the issue.

The owner did mention that after I replace the alternator it seemed to have ran fine for about the first 24- 48 hours and it's had slight bogging and hesitation especially at higher speeds until it gradually got worse yesterday. He did also say that if you put your foot down on the throttle it going it seems like it wants to backfire but it doesn't backfire but he said it sounds like it's going to.

This vehicle is from a time. That I'm not very familiar with but I'm slowly learning about.

I think I'm going to check for a fuel filter and if it has one replace it. I wonder if there is restricted flow or even reduced pressure.

On this type of Cadillac How would one check the fuel pressure regulator on it and is there any special quick connects or anything like that to check the fuel pressure?

I don't have access to Alldata or other repair sources for this other than online stuff.

If anyone sees any symptoms that they've dealt with on this before and could get me pointed in the proper direction whether it be a multi-step approach or a single step check this type of approach definitely respond and let me know I would appreciate it.


Frustrated with myself as I try to stay updated with the latest and current 2001 Danelle and I try to stay away from these older models but it's hard to say no when it's a friend and he keeps bugging you. If I could just fix it then I could just be able to charge him because you can't charge somebody for something you can't fix. That's the approach I've always taken.

I do have a Snap-On component tester but at the same time I don't have the ability to hook up to the OBD one because my wireless compact scan module with the OBD1 adapter will not fit into the scan port. I don't know what OBD1 Snap-on ports I would need to convert to an OBD2 scan module because in a rush to hook things up initially I didn't realize it was already one. I guess I will just have to get the codes the old school way fingers crossed and see what they say then look them up on my scan tool and see what test I can do with the component tester.

I have a vacuum gauge, I have a vacuum gauge gun to create a vacuum, I have the built inoscilloscope on one of my scan tools with the component tester, I have a plethora of other tools available as well so if you think there's something I should test throw it out there and if I don't have the tool I will respond back and we can go a different route. I do have a fuel pressure test kit, I have just a standard fuel pressure gauge Turn Only the Quick Connect ones for today's modern vehicles but I would think there's some type of adaptation we can do to measure the fuel pressure.

I've got some specialty tools and I haven't even used yet I just figured I would need them eventually. I do have a Picoscope which if there's something I could learn from this with the Picoscope as I've always held myself back from breaking it out because of my lack of experience with it. I've been doing more reading and watching lately especially on Pico scope videos and am starting to realize that once you learn the basics it can actually be quicker for maybe if not quicker give you a more proven result by being able to prove the test you're doing, prove that the component is bad, prove that the new component is good. I do have the pulse pressure sensor as well so this could definitely be a learning lesson for me as I'm always open to learning more.

Sorry about all the rambling but wanted to show that I want to learn this. Some stuff I know and some stuff I forget and some stuff well I just don't know. Willing to learn though.

I'm sure I'll have a "Oh now I remember that moment" over this vehicle. With all the trans cooler line leaks, power steering leaks I'm surprised they didn't send it down the road awhile back.

I guess what keeps me coming back to this is I know once he gets his pickup fixed this vehicle will go back to his mother and she's an older lady that needs this vehicle and that's where my Line in the Sand is normally because when it comes to the elderly I will pretty much tell them you pay for the parts and I will take care of the labor or we can figure something out. Her son who's been driving it doesn't know this which is good because he'd probably say everything is for his mom.

I know this car has been to 2 full time shops and I just do this stuff as a hobby more so to speak.

Given the money that the shops have charged which I don't know the full extent of the amount they've charged but the fact that they haven't fixed the issue I would love to be the guy along with the community out there of you fellow Gearheads that gets this fixed because it's moments like that which get me thinking that this is why we do what we do because of our frustrations with some dealerships, shops that don't always choose to do it right which is the case with this vehicle.

It's also a teaching moment for me as back in the mid 90's I was doing Class 8 semi truck & trailer work, welding, electrical, etc and after repeated back issues took up trucking which was a good but long term physically for my discs in back a bad choice. Wish I would've retrained towards automotive in 97 rather than go trucking.

Any ideas, suggestions or anything like that please by all means let me know. I am willing to learn as well.



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07 Apr 2019 20:39 #28505 by wacoeagle
Find out how to pull the codes, pull them then post them here.

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08 Apr 2019 09:56 - 08 Apr 2019 10:05 #28514 by Dtnel
Had a battery's been unplugged code but still has a E98
Something to do with the IAC motor. Got me stumped on that but it's old school as well so gotta research it and go from there.


Anyways cleaned the throttle body with sea foam spray as it was gunked up even the tube for the EGR near the front inside the TB hole had buildup making the hole slightly smaller.

Checked the fuel pressure and with key forward it was about 38 which is good for that vehicle. Figured that one out by accident. Was reading the owner's manual oh, yes it still the original owners manual in the glove box from when it was sold in Florida in 1992 with the original owner's name and address on it. I thought that was kind of unique right there. This imagine getting ahold of the original owner and reuniting them with their car from years ago but chances are they very well could be dead is it going to rain on what age they were when they bought it. As we all know older middle-aged people tended to buy them Cadillacs back then because me has a guy coming out of high school sure as hell couldn't have afforded one. Lol...


Anyways back to the fuel specs it said 34 243 and being around 38ish was good. When started it went up slightly but stayed steady even throttling up and as well when snapping the throttle. I figured it's good.

If I read correctly these vehicles only have an upstream O2 sensor which is going to lead me to the next thing. The catalytic converter.

I pulled it back out because I got thinking about when Tyler told me that me mentioning my thermal imager once saved him sometime one day. So I got thinking hey let's check the catalytic converter. Well the temperature going in looked brighter than the temperature going out to me.

Now I'm starting to think maybe that maybe they replaced the fuel injectors a while back because they were dumping fuel cousin drivability issues but that has me wondering did they let the owner know if the catalytic converter was bad did they check the catalytic converter Island and there shop on the lift or even after a test drive on a lift with a thermal imager or something like that? Thermal imagers seem to be quite common in plentiful these days and All Brands shapes sizes heck even checking their temperature of the temp gun pointed right at it with the little red. Would probably show elevated Temps? Am I going in a bad Direction here or not theorizing?

So I whipped out the thermal imager. Keep in mind I had to take the shot upside down as with the handle on the snap on thermal imager I have, less than $1k new ($900) a few years back after they came out. It was a demo one that he'd let a shop try and it came with full warranty.

Anyway without further ado...

Here's a series of known good, known bad, descriptor and a few current images of the caddy I looked at last night.

Being the guy as a friend and I didn't want to put much time in it because he's going to try to knock be down on the pricing I suggest it to him to maybe take it to a muffler shop and have them inspect the catalytic converter as being that the factory one is welded I've seen it's recommended that the replacement be welded as well rather than clamped. It was a matter of clamping I do have the exhaust pipe expanding kit and all that good stuff and I could clamp it but I think he needs to go pay the regular ShopRite and then see that I wasn't charging him too bad of a rate.

If he has time & money to re-up his supply of "stuff" then he should have the money to pay a shop and me as well. A while back I started to learn that the ones that are friends but only come around when something is wrong with their vehicle maybe aren't quite the friends you thought they were. As my wife puts it when that phone rings if I can guess what the call is about then I probably need to wean the person off and move on with my life.



On the images of the cars converter the right side if front of vehicle. Camera was upside down. On the right side you can see the left front wheel in the images.



I also told the owner to start running 91 octane in this because I did see online last night and more than a few places that it's recommended to run 91 octane.

If he does the catalytic converter and it still has surging issues and stuff like that then maybe it might be time to taking on a drive with the scope hooked up to see if we got something cutting in and out as we're going down the road.

The reason I figured catalytic converter was the fact that in the tips it says there should be a much higher temp on the outlet than inlet but it appears that there's not a big difference especially after the test drive (picture where temps are close) hope I have the thought on that correct. Now I'm doubting myself.

Also just got thinking I never changed the fuel filter. Ding ding especially if it's clogged but I think a full-time shop that slaps injectors in there for $800 what at least replace the fuel filter? (Scratching my head now and wondering)




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Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 10:05 by Dtnel.

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08 Apr 2019 12:14 #28515 by wacoeagle
a simple vacuum test will tell u if the cat is plugged. rev it to abt 4.000 and watch gauge, should pull hard vac, then let off abruptly,,. vaccumm should stabilize rather quickly, if it drops real slow, exhaust isnt breathing.
Iac COULD have been causing your problem, but clear codes, take it for a ride until it runs like crap again, run it above 50 mph so vacuum gets high enough to open EGR. then read codes again..
your looking at fuel and exhaust but u may have an ignition problem., have yu dne the spray bottle mist test on the wires, plugs, coil.. the way the coil is mounted its common for the coil wire to short to ground when bad.
IF YOU KEEP HOPPING AROUND IN A RANDOM way like your doing, and dont establish a process of confirmation and elimination, this could go on forever..

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08 Apr 2019 13:55 #28516 by Dtnel

wacoeagle wrote: a simple vacuum test will tell u if the cat is plugged. rev it to abt 4.000 and watch gauge, should pull hard vac, then let off abruptly,,. vaccumm should stabilize rather quickly, if it drops real slow, exhaust isnt breathing.
Iac COULD have been causing your problem, but clear codes, take it for a ride until it runs like crap again, run it above 50 mph so vacuum gets high enough to open EGR. then read codes again..
your looking at fuel and exhaust but u may have an ignition problem., have yu dne the spray bottle mist test on the wires, plugs, coil.. the way the coil is mounted its common for the coil wire to short to ground when bad.
IF YOU KEEP HOPPING AROUND IN A RANDOM way like your doing, and dont establish a process of confirmation and elimination, this could go on forever..



I'm almost afraid to rev his engine to 4k rpm's as I almost think something bad would happen.

Imust have missed the spray mist test? Where's that. Good point on the coil wire. Maybe I should learn some more and do some more tests. I'll check out and see if I can find some videos on pauls series of videos on premium channel.

Thanks!

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09 Apr 2019 21:56 #28547 by Dtnel
OK took it for a drive today. Drove the hell out of it. Wouldn't act up until I got back in town.

Revving it up something seems to start whining up well I'm running the idle up and then when I let off that whines down and you get a clunk and on a sloped driveway the car will roll back a couple inches.


Here's a link to the high idle vacuum test I did hooked to the vacuum line from the brake booster that goes to the air filter intake on the side of the filter housing

Air filter is good and not restricted.

It only does this when hot and also I hooked the fuel pressure gauge up again and with the vehicle warm it has dropped to low 30's and fluctuates.

When I throttle up it drops some and doesn't always come back to the 33-39 range I've observed it in when engine isn't fully warmed up.

With what you were saying @WacoEagle about the vacuum I think there's some type of restriction down line.

I told the owners son who drives it to sell it cold for $1500 and take the money and run if he can.


Link to video,


www.dropbox.com/s/wyn0z14oxty32cx/20190409_210234.mp4?dl=0

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11 Apr 2019 08:00 #28565 by Dtnel
This should allow access to different videos I made of this when it was acting up and when I was able to get the throttle to open up a couple times allowing the vacuum to show properly.

Keep in mind this is my first time dealing with vacuum so this is like a class to me. I will say it's been an learning curve and there's plenty to go.

In the link it should take you to a folder with multiple video's. One linked above is in there and a few more. They revolve around fuel pressure and vacuum with the vehicle bogging down or bogging out as I say it.

I'd love to take the sawzall and hack of the cat to see if it solves the issue which I'm thinking the reason it's bogging down is the back pressure from the engine exhaust and it being partially restricted and the engine can only take so much when fully warmed up causing it to have backpressure against the engine causing it to bog down?


www.dropbox.com/sh/sm9t0utdxo38192/AADnY...YtPObn0O8ctd8Qa?dl=0

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13 Apr 2019 20:09 #28664 by Dtnel
Once again we wait on the owner to get his head out of his hoo ha! Told em what I felt was wrong even offered to cut the cat off to prove the point or remove the O2 sensor as that needs checked anyways. O2 sensor was pegged out cold and hot on the data on the OBD 1 Bosch tool I picked up the other day. Now I have a OBD 1go to scan tool for data as surprisingly the snappy wasn't doing it for some reason which shocked me. Still stumped.

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