1999 Chevy Cavalier long crank.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
Checked fuel pressure at KOEO: results were 42 psi and spec is 41-47.
Checked fuel pressure running: Results were 37 psi and spec is 31-44.
Fuel leak down: Spec is no more than 5 psi in 10 minutes: My result was 3 psi in 10 minutes. Next leak down spec is drop psi down to 10 psi and the pressure should not leak down more than 2 psi in 10 minutes. My result was psi went up to 14 psi in 10 minutes.
I checked Scan data for the MAP, IAC, ECT, IAT, Baro, and TPS. All data seemed normal except the TPS was not really in spec. Alldata states that with the throttle plate closed, voltage should be at around 0.6 volts. My results were 0.47. WOT should be close to 5 volts and my results were 3.76 volts. Both of these tests were done KOEO. I also watched the data in graph mode and the voltage was smooth with no dropouts. My IAC counts at cold startup were 95 and then dropped to about 25-26 at a hot idle. Car idles in the 650 rpm range when warmed up.
I checked power and grounds to the TPS and had 5.04 volts on 5 volt reference wire and a good ground voltage. I also used a jumper wire from the 5 volt reference wire to the signal wire and watched scan data and the signal wire showed 5 volts so I know that my wiring is good to the computer and the computer can read the signal voltage.
I watched engine rpms while cranking and it shows in scan data so it appears that my crank sensor is working.
O2 sensors are working correctly.
I cleaned both the throttle body and the IAC valve and bore.
Scan data shows no misfires or history of misfires and I don't feel any misfires. Car runs good and has no issues running down the road. Car does not overheat or get hot.
So my question is, are my TPS values skewed enough to cause this issue and if not, what else should I be testing or looking at? Thanks for any input.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Noah
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- Give code definitions with numbers!
- Posts: 4900
- Thank you received: 1092
It's been a long time since I saw one of those cars, but if you were to watch injector ms and TPS on the scan tool, you may even be able to see injector on time go to 0ms above 80% throttle.
Does this engine have the remote mounted MAP? I have seen the hose connecting the MAP to the intake crack, fall off or collapse.
"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
I'm about at a loss to which direction I go now.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Tyler
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- Full time HACK since 2012
- Posts: 6036
- Thank you received: 1515
Check the ECT and IAT after sitting overnight, before starting the engine. They should both agree to within a few degrees of each other, and with the actual ambient temperature.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Noah
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- Give code definitions with numbers!
- Posts: 4900
- Thank you received: 1092
A missing cam signal will cause a long crank time as it will take longer to synchronize injector firing. All though you would think would also set a code.
A weak VR type crank signal could also cause a longer than normal crank time as the low cranking speed coupled with a weak sensor may take longer for the signal to reach the amplitude required for the computer to recognize the signal.
Also, don't overlook the battery. It wouldn't be the first time I have ever seen a battery that could sustain cranking but not supply enough voltage while doing so to support critical electronics.
"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
The battery is new and has good voltage. I voltage drop tested the starter today and it only lost about a volt when starting but the car was immediately starting with no long crank when I did the test.
I also checked the 5 volt reference at the MAP sensor and it was good. I also jumped the reference wire to the signal wire and I got 5 volts on the scanner so that circuit is good.
The biggest issue is that you only get one chance to test anything because once you start it, it will usually not long crank on additional starts unless you let it cool down for a long while.
This morning I also primed the fuel pump several times before trying to start it for the first time of the day and it still had a long crank which again verified to me that it's not a fuel related issue. Thanks again for the reply.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
Long story short, I became a parts changer and replaced the crank sensor and did the relearn for it. That did not fix the issue and the scope capture I took for just the crank sensor looked the same as the sensor that was previously in the car.
I gave up and called a local mobile mechanic to come look at it but he flaked out on me and did not show so I guess we are just going to let my fiancé's son drive it like it is until it breaks for good. I have no other ideas or tests to do so I'm basically done messing with it.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Noah
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- Give code definitions with numbers!
- Posts: 4900
- Thank you received: 1092
It sounds like the car will still be reliable in it's current condition.
If you do end up finding a resolution to the long crank issue, please be sure to update us here.
"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
My fiancé's dad and his brother-in-law think it has something to do with the oil pressure sensor and the oil but I cannot find any information in service information that ties the oil pressure on this car to how it starts.
Tomorrow I'm going to test the ohms on the ECT sensor when it's cold to see if the resistance is correct. I tested it hot and the resistance was in spec at around 2.64 ohms. The last time I checked it after the car had sit for a while, the coolant temp was at 104 degrees Fahrenheit and the ohms reading was 1.4 k ohms which if my conversion is correct is about 1,400 ohms which seems to be on the low side but I'm not sure. Ambient outside temps are in the 90's here so the cold ohm readings may be low.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Noah
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- Give code definitions with numbers!
- Posts: 4900
- Thank you received: 1092
As far as the oil pressure theory, i can see why a lot of people want to go down that route on older GM vehicles.There's some SD videos that cover the operation of the oil pressure switch and how it goes into the fuel pump circuit. Essentially, it's a back up control circuit for the fuel pump relay. Assuming there was an issue with the fuel pump relay control circuit, eventually after cranking the engine enough oil pressure will be made to close the oil pressure switch which will in turn active the fuel pump relay. You've tested fuel pressure all ready, I think you would have noticed if it i wasn't building fuel pressure until after some excessive cranking.
"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Chad
-
- Offline
- Moderator
-
- I am not a parts changer.
- Posts: 2109
- Thank you received: 704
The captures are not great. The cam signal looked normal to me but I never could get the crank signal to look like any of the crank signals that I have seen of other vehicles. I messed around with the voltage and time base but never got it looking good.
I would keep looking into the Crank Signal. This is a 2-wire VRS (Variable Reluctance Sensor). That means that the sensor should produce its own AC voltage. The waveform should be an AC sine wave. If the air gap is too wide, the amplitude of the signal could be too low and it could take the ICM longer to get a good sync.
Connect the negative lead of you scope to the yellow Crank Sensor wire and connect the positive lead to the purple wire. For cranking, set your scope screen time to about 500 ms - 1 second. Set the voltage scale to about 500 mv - 1 volt. As the engine speed increases, the voltage output should increase, too.
"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."
I have learned more by being wrong, than I have by being right.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
On this car, I don't see the oil pressure switch being tied to the fuel pump circuit according to the wiring diagrams unless it's internal to the PCM.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- 70monte
-
Topic Author
- Offline
- Elite Member
-
- Posts: 184
- Thank you received: 26
The mounting surface for the crank sensor was clean and not rust jacked but I cleaned it anyway with the same results so I don't think it's an air cap issue and there is no adjusting when installing the sensor.
I did hook up the scope as you suggested when I was doing my tests as well as hooking the negative lead to the battery with no difference in the scope patterns. This is my fiancé's son's car and he has it now, but I will scope it again when I get a chance.
This problem seems to me to be temperature related since it mainly only does it when the car is cold and the first start of the day or if you let the car cool down too long. I'm not sure if that would be a crank circuit issue or not. Thanks for your help.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.