2005 dodge magnum RT 5.7- Cranks but no Start, Starts By Gas pedal then Stalls..

1) ya G102 is fine. 0v drop. But the fuel relay pin-85 like I said has say 11.8v when the battery voltage is 12.4-12.5v, but i hear the fuel relay clicking and fuel pump running.. so don't worry about that right?was just wondering, if its stopping from running after i start the car...hence stalling...

2) If one of the ETC motor + or - should have 12vPWM when KOEO, then surely the throttle body motor was not working, because no 12v on it...this was because of the bad gas pedal sensor..
I received the pedal sensor assembly and checked for the continuity between pin 2,3 and pin 4,5, which are signal and return(ground inside pcm), they beep for continuity with a resistance ofcourse..where as the old pedal did't had that...

3) In the manual it says to use a scan tool to do ETC relearn, is there other way?

4) I was moving the plate open and close by hand, and occasionally removed throttle sensor, does that call for a ETC relearn everytime and make APP go bad?

1) But i didn't see the steps to do the idle relearn...
you said "If you open it by hand, you have to do and idle relearn after that. " if its just by pressing the gas pedal KOEO and releasing within 2 seconds. I will do that...i am installing the pedal now..

2) So in that case PCM is fine and throttle motor is fine because it engages the plate for a second , small open and close.. and the gas pedal is definitely bad based on my comparison of new and old.

3) I have obd-2 bluetooth scanner, will delete the codes from my torque pro app.

Will update on the pedal installation....i didn't do it yesterday , heavy winds..

I installed the pedal but for some reason the last time I went to see the car and reading voltages, I dropped the lower driver dash to take out the pedal..Not sure what did I made loose..the starter don't crank.. I jumped the starter relay, its fine.. it was sunset by the time I realized the starter didn't engage last time I left...So couldn't see if the new pedal made it crank, but I saw the throttle pedal reading went higher 20% - 100% when i pressed the gas pedal KOEO, the same didn't show last time... but not sure if the throttle plate was also moving when i did that...I had nobody with me...Anyways..installed it but couldn't start..

Will go tomorrow to see if the fused ignition output (start) is not giving signal to pcm or pcm is not giving control (ground) to starter relay for the relay to not engage...good thing is that starter motor is fine..

If can't fix starter to crank easy, will leave the key on and jump the starter relay myself and see if it starts, this can be done on a normal working car and it would start it right?

Note: before installing the pedal i was taking some readings...specially oxygen sensor, EGR valve, APP sensor harness to PCM harness...they seems to be fine no short to ground or battery voltage when ignition off. didn't do the same when KOEOff, but i think it would be same result..

But here's what i found on oxygen sensor readings..
-> I was able to remove the o2 harness and back probe the left- front sensor(easy to reach)...
(Following was done with ignition off)
when the harness was connected, i back probed the pin-1(o2 Heater control) and check the continuity from there to the PCM harness(disconnected), it showed 0 resistance and beeped for continuity and i tried to see if the heater control is short to batteyr voltage or ground..I heard the beep with the ground...is that normal? I was quickly looking thru the manual on the phone and did resistance check...I would say i was getting 4.1ohms on this one and did check for all other 3 o2 sensors and found the continuity and beep sound and the resistance I saw was 4.2 on all others....

I was like is the wire from pcm harness to the o2 sensor is short to ground or what...but i managed to remove the harness on this left-front sensor and checked the same as before (on pcm side), didn't saw beep or resistance...then i went to check on the sensor itself, thought the sensor gone bad, checked the resistance between the heater control and ground pin on it. saw 4.2-4.3 ohms..which is what I was seeing on pcm side with o2 sensor harness connected..
I have a new o2 sensor in package, not installed yet( for the right rear side), checked the same resistance and continuity beep on pin-1, 2 and found 4.5 Ohms and continuity beep..

so I am confused now whether the o2 sensors are fine or not and the heater control circuit should show continuity beep with chasis ground/o2 sensor ground and the resistance being 4.1/4.2 in one of them(left-front) and other 4.3ohms is fine...nothing wrong in here...

Manual saying something about if less than 5ohm the repair short to ground, but I saw the same 4.3-4.5ohms on a new one I have in brand new package, its not above 5ohm..

Lemme know what you think, that nothing wrong with them hopefully?

Thanks

So here's where I am at,

sadly not sure what happened suddenly...starter is not engaging as I mentioned before. thought may be pin-30 or pin-85 was not getting power to the starter relay in the front fuse box but i see pin-30 has voltage all times, and pin-85 has voltage when in crank position. and if I jump 30-87 I hear the starter..so only thing was pin-86 which is T752(DG/OR) wire going to pcm c3-38 harness pin, which provides the ground to the starter relay. it was working perfectly fine even after I lowered the driver lower dash to take out the gas pedal the other day, but after couple of cranks later that evening , no more cranks..

I was in a impression pcm is not giving ground because it may not be getting fused ignition output to the pcm or something in ON position or Start position, so today i checked it I see the pcm is getting fused ignition output in ON position and start position, there are two of them so checked both..also double checked again the power and two grounds to the pcm including the 5v supply from pcm, they all are same as before..

so as usual pcm is giving ground to ASD and fuel relay when key in ON position for few seconds...so its giving ground to them, but not to starter relay hence relay not engaging, checked the relay and swapped it too. no change.
if you just volt meter probe the pins-85 & 86 on starter relay in start position, you see the reading as 11.5v something when battery voltage is 12.2volt higher.. I was like then why relay not clicking, gladly i had test light, first checked the pin 85 &86 on ASD relay to confirm, light illuminates for few seconds which is correct, but same do not happen for starter relay..

in conclusion, voltmeter will give you a reading but there is no ground basically, if pcm gives ground then test light will also light up..glad I had test light to confirm with other relays like ASD...


So what do you think the other signals that could prevent the ground from pcm,
I checked directly at the pcm too, no ground there..pcm to relay wire is perfect, no open/short etc...

I had the pcm case opened to inspect long before when i didn't had anybody to crank the engine and didn't know that ASD, fuel relays will only have ground for 1-3 seconds...the point is , i checked the pin-38 harness c3 on pcm, no burnt or anything on pcm motherboard...everything is fine as it was before...

==>DO you still think the pcm is bad even though there is nothing burnt or is it missing any signal, which is making is not supply ground.....

==> I tried 1 or 2 times to jump the relay while key in crank position, but it didnt start the engine, not sure if it will by doing that...

Note: The new pedal is installed already- with or without it the engine wasn't cranking.so this is not causing it fyi...

voltmeter showed 11.5v something at crank position on pin-85 & 86 but that is misleading i would say because , the relay was not clicking with it. glad i had test light and I used it to see at the asd relay, and test light illuminates but not at starter relay..but if i jump the starter relay the starter engages fine...

So i tried giving battery ground to starer relay , so that i can crank it myself like starting a normal car.. it just cranked and no start, tried doing the same gas pedal trick and no change which is good I would say because its like we are back to the same gas pedal start issue..
I wondered if the fuel pump is giving fuel or not, it primed for sure with key on for 3 seconds, so I sprayed a little bit starter fluid...seems like it started a bit,I would say that is just me spraying it little low fluid(didn't wanna strap a lot for safety)...i was alone doing it...
so since it started with an external fuel it seemed like no fuel coming to it when cranked...now are we back to fuel problem? or bad pcm?

theft light was already there before it was cranking good, just to be safe I was using remote starter (aftermarket) key to unlock the door since my factory key fob not working because of that security light, and the light will go off unless i crank again...but in short I was cranking when there was no light...

so when in crank position, using voltmeter i see 11.5v if connected one lead to 85 and other to 86, but same with test light , it do not light up.. it does when checking ASD....

I didn't see battery voltage at pin-86 in ignition off or ignition only in ON position...nada on voltmeter when other lead connected to battery ground...

so how do you want me to proceed with the fuel, spark seems to be there right, since it kind of started with spraying fluid..fuel pump did primed though and i see fuel in fuel rail, its not that its totally empty...ma be not getting fuel while cranking...

lemme know how to proceed with it..
(I ordered a pcm just for the heck of it, since I am trying things and there is a option for me to return if not needed. so win win for me...)
how long do you want me to remove those fuses, overnight?

so when in crank position, using voltmeter i see 11.5v if connected one lead to 85 and other to 86, but same with test light , it do not light up.. it does when checking ASD....

I didn't see battery voltage at pin-86 in ignition off or ignition only in ON position...nada on voltmeter when other lead connected to battery ground...

so how do you want me to proceed with the fuel, spark seems to be there right, since it kind of started with spraying fluid..fuel pump did primed though and i see fuel in fuel rail, its not that its totally empty...ma be not getting fuel while cranking...

lemme know how to proceed with it..
(I ordered a pcm just for the heck of it, since I am trying things and there is a option for me to return if not needed. so win win for me...)
how long do you want me to remove those fuses, overnight?


Found this in manual: wondering if anything to do with cam or crank sensor on overall issue i have:

"ENGINE START-UP MODE
This is an Open Loop mode. The following actions occur when the starter motor is engaged.
The PCM receives inputs from:
† Battery voltage
† Engine coolant temperature sensor
† Crankshaft position sensor
† Intake manifold air temperature sensor
† Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor
† Throttle position sensor (TPS)
† Starter motor relay
† Camshaft position sensor signal
The PCM monitors the crankshaft position sensor. If the PCM does not receive a crankshaft position sensor signal
within approximately 3 seconds of cranking the engine, it will shut down the fuel injection system.
The fuel pump is activated by the PCM through the fuel pump relay.
Voltage is applied to the fuel injectors with the ASD relay via the PCM. The PCM will then control the injection
sequence and injector pulse width by turning the ground circuit to each individual injector on and off.
The PCM determines the proper ignition timing according to input received from the crankshaft position sensor."

I checked the pin 85 and 86 itself at crank position...with a test light, no light but same shows light on test light at ASD relay(pcm ground like starter relay).

But with voltmeter you see 11.5v when battery voltage is 12.4v something...not sure why voltmeter shows a voltage of any kind between 85 & 86 when test light don't light up at all...and if i just put one lead to pin-86 and other too battery voltage + , no voltmeter reading....that led me use test light at the relay itself..

ya so fuel is priming but may be not opening at crank position or asd relay not opening at crank position or pcm not supplying ground to injectors at crank position or cam and crank sensors signals are not coming in at pcm..

do you want me to check the cam & crank signals at the pcm wires...? it should be at ON position of crank position let me know...? and also do I supply ground to starter relay to engage it while I check any of these two signals? or just key in crank position...

I just opened the clip of fuel rail and saw fuel in it..I would say it is normal as I saw long back when I was installing something and car was perfect at that time... Since I dont have fuel pressure guage , I would say fuel pressure is fine based on my experience on the amount of fuel coming out of fuel rail and with the pressure its coming out, as I saw it when the car was working fine...

ya it cranks only when i supply ground..but this wasn't a problem at all few days ago..not sure what went wrong...theft issue or pcm ..

will try finding fuel guage, but not sure if my hemi has a valve port to check..

will check the cam & crank signal....these readings won't tell you about those yes or no?
(I know right, good scan tool helps, they are expensive)

ya i get that, fuel is not coming at crank..or fuel injectors not opening , both could be the scenarios right? because when we spray in to intake , its not going thru fuel injectors...so they can also be bad meaning not opening...

1) yes I did try starting it in neutral but that was when the starter was not working.. nothing starter wont crank unless provided with ground...

2) The fuses you mentioned 14 & 29 are related to security, Do I remove them and wait for the small currents to discharge or remove it and start the car.? This wont let the pcm say by default that no security found so no start or will it think ok lets start there is no security etc...

3) ya saw couple of them, will watch them again..

4) I see rpm guage needle bounce a little bit not much when cranking and dies to still when not cranking...I wouldn't say its passing the '1' on rpm guage...but if u remember when the car was starting with gas pedal the guage was going to 4,5 because of me pressing it and it was same bouncing a little bit when trying to crank without pressing gas pedal(talking about when crank was fine before)

5) no i didn't mean clog injectors...meant either fuel is not getting from fuel pump or fuel injectors are not turning on since they get ground from pcm and then they open and close...(meant electrical issue not clog), I wont blame ASD for not providing voltage to injectors because i see the voltage...but pcm has the ground control to injectors..

Will replace the pcm as i will be getting it on Saturday and will read those cam and crank signals at pcm at key on and crank position, before that will remove the theft fuses....

Its best I also see if pcm is proving the grounds to injectors....that will isolate the fuel pump and its pressure...

I have been doing this almost all the time when I go back to the car and check it, I leave the battery terminals disconnected but also i have the pcm with me..do its being disconnected almost every time after the crank was not working.. does it need to be connected and the battery terminals disconnected to reset?

the key fob worked may be once or twice when i left the battery disconnected but not after that ....I wanted that to happen again then i can just start the vehicle and see if it does or not... But if I remember correctly i think i did try once when the key fob was working the next day and crank was good....it didn't start, just cranked but soon after that first crank , security light came back....

One important thing, initially when the car didn't start at all for the first time and I saw the security light coming on every time i crank, I tried to reprogram the key may be because the light was annoying and thought its stopping the car to start..My friend has this SBB key programmer and when i tried to connect it, it gave power and the SBB started but it said "ECU not connected/found" which is not ok because i have used this long back to program a second key and worked perfectly...
I am thinking data link connector is bad or what, and will it stop the car from starting or something because of the can bus c+ & - it has...?
(I couldn't do anything with SBB this time , so i unplugged it)
Now even when I connect my obd-2 bluetooth adapter, i have to wiggle it a bit to make it connect.....I am sure its because of the water leak from sunroof which caused the gas pedal to go bad for sure..and the data link connector is all open...

or may be when SBB said ECU not found, its may be SKIM module right? or the datalink connector itself... obd2 adapter works fine though, can read codes but need to wiggle to see power to it initially....

SKIM is inside the ignition switch?

ya the security light comes on always and to eliminate that i use my remote starter unlock button which is making it go off and as soon as I crank it (whether the crank was working few days ago or not working now), it comes back on...

Been disconnecting battery , cables, pcm, leaving headlight after disconnecting battery to discharge any small amount of current to reset the security..it comes back on always...like i mentioned goes off if i press remote starter unlock button but after one crank comes back on...

I wonder how to reset it, will remove the fuses and try , didn't try because was waiting for the pcm that i ordered today... tomorrow should be the judgement day which will eliminate the pcm for sure, but hope this security light wont come in the way to confuse me...

this would let us know if the security disturbing all this...

Will update on it...

I wanna do the sequence,

1) check the cam & crank signals at pcm by just connecting black c1 harness to pcm , and not connect all other c2 and c3 harness, beacuse all the cam and crank need is 5v and ground..which comes from c1 harness...will read those signals for info...

2) will connect/check connectors if disconnected to diagnose and connect this new pcm and use jumper battery to unlock the doors and then disconnect the jumper and get access to the trunk fuse box as the car is unlocked, remove those 14 & 29 fuses and wait 5- 10 minutes, and then connect back and see if security goes off if it was active when connected the jumper battery to unlock the doors...if not just try cranking the car..

3) will update you on what happens...the gas pedal was for sure gone bad because of the moisture because pins 2-3 & 4-5 should have continuity beep when using meter but there was none on old sensor...

1) i have two keys and i double checked them, they are 3+volts...they are fine.. and was also confirmed when one or two times when left the battery cables disconnected, they worked until the first crank...
they are good..

2) Ya i will try replacing it and see if it works , if its not the issue then i can return it..seller told me..

3) This is plug and play pcm, its been programmed to my VIN and mileage and its the same part number...
I asked them twice if the keys need to be changed or anything...but this is plug and play, since the VIN and mileage is mathcing the pcm and SkIM and mileage in other places like cluster or may be skim(not sure) etc....

if I had four plugs on pcm then its NGC style pcm and won't be plug and play it seems...

Are you saying even after programming the pcm to my VIn number , it wont accept it?they confirmed its plug and play now..lets say if not, i can program my keys again with that SBB key programmer...but this time hope it dont say ECU not found..

if my obd scanner gives me codes does that mean ECU is communication right? but SBB said ECU not found...wonder is it talking about SKIM? may be i just need to wiggle the wire to program the keys if needed by this new pcm, but they said no need.

Here's what happened, installed the new computer and it cranks and for the couple of cranks I didn't need to press the gas pedal.. but stalled again after few seconds...

after couple of starts not sure if its the jumper battery going low but i pressed the gas pedal one or two times to start it again and it did...probably i should stop doing that...

Do you think its the fuel now or may be anti-theft...?

yes the light remains ON after the crank... and it was also the same before my crank gone bad.. but this time Initial start didn't need the gas pedal to be pressed..whereas if you remember, I needed gas pedal to be pressed even to start for a second..

EGR code , I didn't take care of it... I read somewhere , that the valve might not be open or stuck open something, you tap on it while the car is on idle to get rid of the stuck open or stuck close to do reverse and hopefully it reverses that p0406 code , saw this on south main auto repair youtube channel..
since i can't start the car, so couldn't do anything...


Does the EGR makes it stall? should i disconnect the harness and cranks?

will try the fuel relay removal...(by the way i was using gas pedal to start the car not brake pedal, may be a typo)

Thanks

I would take that EGR valve off if it were me...probably stuck open. Can block the intake port off with a piece of duct tape and try to start it.

yes the light remains ON after the crank... and it was also the same before my crank gone bad.. but this time Initial start didn't need the gas pedal to be pressed..whereas if you remember, I needed gas pedal to be pressed even to start for a second..

EGR code , I didn't take care of it... I read somewhere , that the valve might not be open or stuck open something, you tap on it while the car is on idle to get rid of the stuck open or stuck close to do reverse and hopefully it reverses that p0406 code , saw this on south main auto repair youtube channel..
since i can't start the car, so couldn't do anything...


Does the EGR makes it stall? should i disconnect the harness and cranks?

will try the fuel relay removal...(by the way i was using gas pedal to start the car not brake pedal, may be a typo)

Thanks

Note: Not sure if this gives us direction to rich fuel like you said.. but whenever the car starts with me pressing gas pedal , I noticed if I try start it few times at the same time to see if it stays idle..i see white smoke burst out may be after the 3rd start...i have read its a rich (more fuel) symptom but not sure if its rich because of the try that I did few times before i am seeing this smoke or its rich from days of trying to start..

Rich from egr valve staying open Tapping on it may not work. Also, trying to start a lot of cars with an egr valve stuck open could trigger it to shut down? I would take the valve off and look at it....even if it's not stuck open, try to put a piece of duct tape over intake hole where egr mounts and try it again. Pretty easy to take off of there.

ok. i replaced the pcm to check if pcm will supply ground to starter relay now its doing..may be the old pcm gone bad or its the shutdown as you mentioned? and since new pcm is just installed its just a matter of time it will shutdown too?

Oh may be you talking about engine shutdown....

Not after I changed this new PCM, and also its starting without me pressing the gas pedal now.., so it could be just the EGR stuck open..

The sad part about this they towed the car from the street, so when i went to the Auto pound to pickup, i attached the pcm there and started it, it started without pressing gas pedal but stalled after few seconds...since they don't allow to repair anything there or even check something..i had to tow it to a mechanic rather than bringing back to the street...

Now its like you know what to do to fix it but gave the car to the mechanic to repair it..bad luck...

just spoke to him, he is working on it..but he said in the lines that he changed the battery..(damn its 1.5 years old and its totally fine, just need to charge-) hopefully he just charges it or installed a other one to do his diagnosis....

Will update on what he says...i am sure it will come down to EGR stuck open

1) can we release the EGR valve ourself or it needs to be replaced?

2) since its starting without gas pedal and no need to provide ground to starter relay( this wasn't a problem before but something happen and it caused this new problem), was the old pcm bad? or it just the old pcm had temp memory which was shutting down the system..?

3) Is it ok once he finishes with the car, can I install the old pcm to check if the car starts ? will that alter any temp memory or something..and bring it back to old no start issue..

4) was also thinking of checking it with the old gas pedal but i think since there is no continuity between signal and return circuits on pin 2,3 and pin 4,5 on gas pedal Accelerator pedal position sensor in the old one, i am gonna assume its bad since the new one has...so probably will leave this alone..

Thanks