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2005 dodge magnum RT 5.7- Cranks but no Start, Starts By Gas pedal then Stalls..

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17 Dec 2018 22:12 #25466 by hacerz
I will paste the question as I Typed out. Don't mind the order, thx

"I was working on the car trying to find the problem as to why it won't start but cranks perfectly and all the ligts on the cluster including the check engine light, and obd-2 bluetooth adapter connects to it and gives me the codes and stuff...

it had no problem but the gas pedal was not moving freely so thought throttle body might have carbon buildup, but found out i cleaned a while back and its clean, while doing that in the cold weather, broke voltage wire on the injector-3 harness and no big deal attached it together and checked the continuity and its good(its not the issue but just mentioning the series of action that happened).

i just sprayed little lubricant near the pedal and its fine now...
I did all the checks from ASD relay to fuel relay and looked a lot of wiring diagrams in the service manual...so please don't think that i won't be able to understand if you tell me something to check. Learnt from you. most of the basic stuff I might have already checked and will be able to answer if you ask me to check them. Its like I am at the spot where I am thinking its computer but I checked the power(Fused B+) wire and two ground wires coming to the PCM on the c1 harness...they are good and I checked the 5v on pin-27 C1 harness and i see 4.95v.

and also saw the 5v coming in to couple of sensors intake air sensor and EGR sensor as they were easy to pull out....little worried/not 100% sure about testing the ground, little bit confuse at this point ground is working fine or not because PCM is controlling the ground to ASD, fuel pump and other relays which seems to me that its not giving it since I was not able to see the controlled ground given by pcm to ASD relay and fuel relay..(Confirmed at the pcm that its not giving chasis ground to fuel pump relay (pin-86)upon key-on for 3 seconds (chrysler says in the manual) also the same for asd relay, which in turn is giving 12v to the injectors via injector, coils fuse....

so no ASD relay activation, not able to see the asd relay activation(no click on the relay). read that ASD relay also activates initially for 3 seconds or 1 second then stops before we start the engine or something. in short didn't heard any clicks when key-on. and no clicks on fuel relay too....if I jump the asd relay when key-on form 30-87, i see battery voltage going to injector fuse and the injectors get the voltage but no test after that...

if jumped fuel relay, i hear the fuel pump running....
initially i thought the security light on the dash is causing it, but i did try starting when there is no light there and the key fob working, as key fob was also not working in conjunction with that security light showing up stable while ignition on...

I had to leave the battery unplugged overnight, so make key fob work...
so right now i am using a battery jumper, high cranking amps on this jumper battery...
The only way the car starts for 1 or 2 seconds is by pressing the gas pedal to the floor and by just pressing and releasing it and finding the spot to start the engine, but it does that only for couple of seconds, i see the rpm, fuel guage working. rpm guage starts high as I pressed the gas pedal to start the car but then goes down and stalls in couple of seconds...

right now even after clearing the codes, I see P0031,p0037,p0051,p0057 o2 sensors heater circuit low codes, and i saw P0406 too, may be because i had removed it to check 5v ...I just wanted to type it what happened and where am I so that I don't waste your time......

Will wait for your reply Paul, I know I typed in too much..

Fuse Diagram: https://fusesdiagram.com/dodge/fuses-and-relay-dodge-charger-dodge-magnum.html


PCM connectors pin-outs on Page-3500
Service manual : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ofo6epl4aclda91/2006-2012%20LX%20Workshop%20Manual.pdf

Please don't hesitate to ask me to check anything. Will do that and probably have done most of the stuff now.

Thanks for your help in advance.

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18 Dec 2018 07:17 #25468 by Doc n2mx
HI
If you look up your codes you will find that they all have the same ground G109 this is a common factor that you need to check out.

As for the hard start check all your temp sensors when the engine is cold they should all be the same

Clear the codes and see what codes come right back and id there is a few look at the codes and look for the cause that will trigger all of them..

Good luck
Doc

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18 Dec 2018 10:37 #25471 by hacerz
thank you so much for replying..I have been posting questions to many forums and didn't get a single reply..

Initially I believe there was no codes but may be it was just waiting to come out , i am talking about when i fix the littl ebroken wire on injector-3 harness which is common to all the other. but thats not the problem here i checked the continuity and i joined them together fine..

1) The P0406- I myself will ignore it because it came up after I started he car the way its want to and anytime i does that depending on the no. of restarts , i get white smoke for a second, not sure if its because fuel is flooded or something.

but the codes consistently coming back up are those p0031 to p0057 for oxygen sensor, low circuit...

2) There was code U3000 came up for network, which is also one of the reason i thought it could be computer, but i can plug in obd-2 connector and get codes...

3) Yes, I saw that G109 which is common for front o2 sensors but there is no location in the manual for that and the other rear o2 sensors have G100( I looked but didn't see it there or may be I missed it down somewhere...will have to see the location.
Please let me know the G109 location .

4) I am using torque pro app for the codes ad stuff..it also has graphs to select to and i think i saw the temp sensors like Intake air temp, and it was 33 degree something (outside temp). Please let me know the list of temp sensors that I should check..

5) I was looking for voltage on the o2 sensor heater control pin for front o2 sensors to start with on pcm harness with ignition-on. But I didn't back probe it, I removed the c2 and c3 harness but connected the c1 harness(Black ) , i didn't see anything..this time pcm is power controlling the o2 sensors only.. the fuel, asd are ground controlled...

Much appreciate your help.

Doc n2mx wrote: HI
If you look up your codes you will find that they all have the same ground G109 this is a common factor that you need to check out.

As for the hard start check all your temp sensors when the engine is cold they should all be the same

Clear the codes and see what codes come right back and id there is a few look at the codes and look for the cause that will trigger all of them..

Good luck
Doc

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18 Dec 2018 11:19 - 18 Dec 2018 11:20 #25474 by hacerz
Just to be more accurate, if I delete the codes , they all come up but P0037 shows right off the bat as current fault and others show pending....but they do come as pending if i try starting the car couple of times...

Much appreciate your help.
Last edit: 18 Dec 2018 11:20 by hacerz.

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18 Dec 2018 18:18 #25487 by hacerz
Can anyone please reply.....

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18 Dec 2018 22:08 #25495 by BobbyM
Try the loaded ground test because it's not good to test grounds when the cars just sitting off, test the ground while car is cranking !

Connect test light to battery negative and touch on those ground points while you crank the car over. Test light lighting means bad ground.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Tyler

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18 Dec 2018 22:18 #25497 by BobbyM

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19 Dec 2018 00:20 #25499 by hacerz
I was able to see G100 for some reason , would that be still beside the engine on the left side after the shock box and before the headlight? or its above the wheel when you look underneath the fender....any actual car pic would be great....

can I use multimeter? i don't have a test light...

1) can I do this, I will put the multi meter in to continuity mode where i can hear beep, and connect it to the battery ground and connect the other to these grounds while cranking.. if I loose the beep then it means we saw a bad ground there right?
doing either of the test will be lil hard because the battery is in the trunk..i havea 12 feet 8 guage jumper/booster wire..shall i use that?

2) Another question, I normally thought that if you touch two wires or a metal piece with the multimeter in beep/continuity mode, you see value 0.00 or close , you hear a beep. But I noticed that if I just touch positive and negative of a relay or infact just a plain car battery + & -, you hear the beep for continuity but the value is live 680 something on the screen... that make sense? whats the criteria for continuity though..

3) Does these codes for o2 sensors which we are trying to solve, stop the car from starting?
what do you want me to check for the car to start...it starts and stalls and only starts after pressing gas pedal to the floor and revving up and down to find a spot but dies after rpm drops on guage...

4) Just wanna add this, not sure if I said this earlier in the post. that since my key fob was not working and the security light was showing on the dash when i attached the jumper battery after 3 weeks, I left the battery negative unplugged and saw key fob working but i think I didn't try starting the car at that moment... later i found out , could be the security stopping it because there was nothing wrong with the car at all... been sitting for weeks before , started right away..anyways. so i did unplug the negative and this time attached + & - to drain the capacitors etc to let the key fob work (did before couple of times before all this problems, nothing wrong with doing that) but next morning i attached the jumper in the front power/fuse module as the trunk will only open when u have power,the negative terminal here is that G102 and saw lil smoke coming out of the the positive terminal of that front power module. did removed it in a second...it happened because at the back + & - was together....
but saw no difference in anything, the car is same as what it was before this, start and stall only if pedal to the floor and without that just cranks good...

May be this o2 codes came after that, because if I remember correctly I didn't scan the code before but tried looking for them on the dash by doing the ignition sequence with the key...

In short, it didn't do anything wrong as per starting the car but may or may not have added those o2 codes. Visual inspection of that G102 is totally fine..Also saw G104 before, good..

Just wanted to add these notes, Will do that ground test you mentioned in crank position.

Thanks

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19 Dec 2018 02:22 #25502 by BobbyM
I never used continuity test mode like that before.
Put the test light in DC mode 20V range if yours is not auto ranging. Put one end on battery negative and the other end on the eyelet. The current path goes from wire > eyelet > bolt > chassis. Crank engine and the voltmeter should report V and should stay as close to 0V as possible. That jumper wire will work fine.

I wrote incorrectly to do a loaded ground test, but that is not necessary. I was thinking of starter bad ground which calls for loaded ground test. G102 is a computer ground. Key on engine off will suffice. The voltage at that ground point should be less than 50mV. But all of this could be for nothing and there's nothing wrong with the ground. I would just unscrew the ground connection and give it a good 1 minute clean with a wire brush and reinstall it, but hey that's me.

I don't think o2 codes would stop a car from starting, but i may be wrong.

You wrote that the car is starting briefly but you also wrote you had no control side ground from PCM at ASD relay and no control side ground at the fuel pump relay. Is it starting briefly because you jumped the load side connectors?

I don't know anything about the anti theft device or keyfob stuff.

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19 Dec 2018 13:55 #25510 by hacerz
1) I will double check the ground thing with just ignition off, i did before the resistance test and 1 ohms... will do the voltage drop test...

2) The car is starting for a second or two with couple of tries and jumper battery being charged fully. and i can only do that couple of times before the jumper battery wont have sufficient voltage... I did amp draw test with the + & - wires of my car connected to my almost dead battery, i see 3A draw, i think its because the battery is drawing current from jumper battery to charge itself and if i eliminate the battery and then check it i saw 0.75A and this is after all the doors locked and waiting for long time to let other stuff shutoff automatically...

3) if I jump the fuel relay or the asd relay or if I don't do anything, i would say its starting the same way by gas pedal only for a sec or two.... I was jumping the pin-30 with pin-87 directly...should i jump the coil side relay first?

4) Also do you if the resistance or the ground test you mentioned should be zero for the pcm ground and chasis ground? meaning are these ground will be same.if yes then i checked the controlled ground both at the fuel relay and at the pcm too at the corresponding pin but no continuity between the chasis ground and the pin at pcm(for control ground). but if you connect one lead of meter to that pcm pin and other to battery positive , you see the voltage...same goes at the fuel relay side....

Please let me know if the pcm ground is same at chasis ground and do they should have continuity...

Thanks

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19 Dec 2018 18:08 - 20 Dec 2018 01:09 #25531 by hacerz
I also noted yesterday that the top bulb on the headlight was on when the key was in on position but was not so bright...that could be the headlight itself or the hazard light (yellow), not sure as its aftermarket lights...

To me seems like a security issue but not sure...I do see the solid security light on dash , if i leave the battery overnight unplugged , sometimes it makes the keyfob work and i think at that time i may not see those lights...

How to solve this if it comes back again?

Thanks
Last edit: 20 Dec 2018 01:09 by hacerz.

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20 Dec 2018 15:25 #25553 by hacerz
1) I will double check the ground thing with just ignition off, i did before the resistance test and 1 ohms... will do the voltage drop test...

2) The car is starting for a second or two with couple of tries and jumper battery being charged fully. and i can only do that couple of times before the jumper battery wont have sufficient voltage... I did amp draw test with the + & - wires of my car connected to my almost dead battery, i see 3A draw, i think its because the battery is drawing current from jumper battery to charge itself and if i eliminate the battery and then check it i saw 0.75A and this is after all the doors locked and waiting for long time to let other stuff shutoff automatically...

3) if I jump the fuel relay or the asd relay or if I don't do anything, i would say its starting the same way by gas pedal only for a sec or two.... I was jumping the pin-30 with pin-87 directly...should i jump the coil side relay first?

4) Also do you if the resistance or the ground test you mentioned should be zero for the pcm ground and chasis ground? meaning are these ground will be same.if yes then i checked the controlled ground both at the fuel relay and at the pcm too at the corresponding pin but no continuity between the chasis ground and the pin at pcm(for control ground). but if you connect one lead of meter to that pcm pin and other to battery positive , you see the voltage...same goes at the fuel relay side....

Please let me know if the pcm ground is same at chasis ground and do they should have continuity...

Thanks

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21 Dec 2018 18:24 - 21 Dec 2018 20:25 #25578 by Monde
The ECM provides ground to the starter relay as well as the ASD relay. If the engine cranks, we can assume that the ECM is fine for now and check for continuity in the ASD control wire at the ecm and the relay. Also, check for a short to ground(both ends disconnected and with the voltmeter in the ohm setting ,Mega ohm if the voltmeter is not auto ranging and connect one end of the voltmeter to ground and the other end to either end of the wire. Acceptable reading Ol.

Never assume, diagnose!
Last edit: 21 Dec 2018 20:25 by Monde.

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22 Dec 2018 00:59 #25583 by hacerz
spent whole day finding out the problem,seems like ecm is fine in terms of asd, fuel relay and starter.. throttle body plate is not moving when key on and gas pedal pressed... took out the gas pedal, after I could not see any voltage at pin-3 on throttle body harness with key on and gas pedal pressed to say half using breaker bar..(pin-3= etc motor+, which is at ecm harness c2-pin6), etc- seems to be having good continuity with chasis ground..
so removed the gas pedal and checking its resistance at the position sensor to confirm if its sensor , if not then i should move to sensor harness to ecm circuit.....

can you tell me what to look for in terms of resistance or continuity (beep sound on multi-meter) on the Accelerator pedal position sensor....it has 6 pins..i hope you can find the diagram for my hemi...

will do that test first...i just dont wanna change it without confirming it...its like $140 part...

Also assuming its bad, can I just start the car by opening a vaccum like or opening throttle body plate manually little bit to let the air go inside...doesn't matter rich or lean idle...can i start that way? if yes, do I still need to plug this bad(if it is..lol) pedal to its harness then try to start with vaccum leak?

thanks

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22 Dec 2018 17:52 #25592 by Monde
You can hear a beep if you choose to.Usually, you are given a resistance specs. What is the specs? By the way, I didn't get a chance to check that at work today.
If the ETC happens to be bad, you just have to replace it.

Never assume, diagnose!

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22 Dec 2018 19:25 #25593 by hacerz
So here;s where I am at,

1) ETC is not bad i think because when key on, etc engages and flips its plate twice to engage itself,as if computer talking to it are you there... so i was also told by mechanic(online) that that means pcm and etc are good..
Since I already found that ETC+ to the throttle do not have any voltage, now its time to check accelerator position sensor at the gas pedal, which could be the culprit as car had water leak from sunroof may be, and water evaporated and did something...they say chrysler had that gas pedal sensor problem.

2) SO I nee the resistance check for the sensor itself.( Do you have it , please let me know)
(Here's what i found myself, multimeter in continuity mode, by the way sensor has two circuit it seems, pin 1(5v) to 3 and pin 6(5v) to 4, i see value between 1 & 2 , and 1 & 3 with or without pressing the pedal to actuate the sensor resistance and same is not true for 6 & 4 and 6 & 5 with or without pedal, no values all I see is '1' like infinity type.or open circuit.

3) Question, is it right what i did and do you have something to check which clearly says that if failed this is the sensor..

4) Just in case, I checked for any open or damaged wire from the sensor harness wires to pcm.. they are come and go to the pcm on this side of the circuit( we already know throttle to pcm wires are fine). so both sides wires are good, no open or damage..

5) Do you think the ETC is bad, when its not getting the ETC+ voltage....?

6) wondering if the o2 sensors codes i am getting p0031,0037,0051,0057 are related to gas pedal sensor, meaning if we can start the vehicle we might be able to run is on idle and delete codes and check again and probably not find those codes?
along with those i have EGR code too p0406( some mechanic said if u unplug it with key on it will show). but i deleted the code and gave ignition cycles but came back on the first one again...

Thanks

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22 Dec 2018 20:51 #25597 by Monde

hacerz wrote: So here;s where I am at,

1) ETC is not bad i think because when key on, etc engages and flips its plate twice to engage itself,as if computer talking to it are you there... so i was also told by mechanic(online) that that means pcm and etc are good..
Since I already found that ETC+ to the throttle do not have any voltage, now its time to check accelerator position sensor at the gas pedal, which could be the culprit as car had water leak from sunroof may be, and water evaporated and did something...they say chrysler had that gas pedal sensor problem.

2) SO I nee the resistance check for the sensor itself.( Do you have it , please let me know)
(Here's what i found myself, multimeter in continuity mode, by the way sensor has two circuit it seems, pin 1(5v) to 3 and pin 6(5v) to 4, i see value between 1 & 2 , and 1 & 3 with or without pressing the pedal to actuate the sensor resistance and same is not true for 6 & 4 and 6 & 5 with or without pedal, no values all I see is '1' like infinity type.or open circuit.

3) Question, is it right what i did and do you have something to check which clearly says that if failed this is the sensor..

4) Just in case, I checked for any open or damaged wire from the sensor harness wires to pcm.. they are come and go to the pcm on this side of the circuit( we already know throttle to pcm wires are fine). so both sides wires are good, no open or damage..

5) Do you think the ETC is bad, when its not getting the ETC+ voltage....?

6) wondering if the o2 sensors codes i am getting p0031,0037,0051,0057 are related to gas pedal sensor, meaning if we can start the vehicle we might be able to run is on idle and delete codes and check again and probably not find those codes?
along with those i have EGR code too p0406( some mechanic said if u unplug it with key on it will show). but i deleted the code and gave ignition cycles but came back on the first one again...

Thanks

So, you are saying you don't have voltage to the ETC and you stated that with key ON, the ETC opens the throttle plate? Why are you checking the APPS sensors? The way most dry by wire, if not all work: APPs sensors send signals to pcm, the pcm actuates the ETC and the TPS sensors in the etc report the throttle valve opening and how fast the throttle opens to the pcm. The pcm, then compares the APPS sensors pids to the TPS sensors pids and check if they are rational.
The vehicle cranks, but not start. Let us focus on the crank, no start. You said that the pcm does not ground the ASD relay, let's see if the relay is bad and if there is an open or a short to power or ground in the wire.
I don't have the resistance specs for the APPS sensors. Hopefully, someone else will chime in and provides them to you.

Never assume, diagnose!

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