2006 Kia Sportage, Crank but no start, no spark...ECM wont ground main relay

Hello everyone,
I have a 2006 Kia Sportage with 2.0 Liter and higher miles that's kicking my butt right now and could really use some help or more so insight. I work at a used car dealership and we tend get all the cars from auction that none of the other mechanics wanted to touch. Vehicle drove fine from the auction, then we got a code P0560 and it wouldn't start. The other mechanic put a new battery in it and still no change. The engine turns over fine but no spark, no start. I traced the problem back to the main relay which controls the spark and ignition, once the main relay turns on and closes the switch it powers the fuel relay. I bypassed the main relay with some jumper wires, both control and switch sides of the circuit and it started just fine. I tested the relay and even swapped it with the starter relay and both are functioning perfectly. The code signifies with the Kias that the voltage between the ignition and after the relay are different, for instance there is current at the ignition circuit but nothing after the main relay. I took the fuse box apart completely and the control side of the relay has power from the battery at 12 volts but the black wire with orange stripe coming from the ECM isn't grounding the circuit to pull the switch side down. I disconnected the ECM and tested the black/orange wire by sending voltage through it and its fine. I checked many of the ECM's major grounds and they all show less than .150 volts. I wasnt sure if the ecm looks for a crank signal first before grounding the ecm so I replaced the CKP sensor when it didnt look right on my lab scope, when ignition turned to ON, signal voltage at CKP went to 6 volts but while cranking it I didn't see much of a up and down toothed waveform....maybe my time base wasn't see right but my MODIS set up the test KOEC. I have no other choice here but to replace the ECM for a bad ground driver circuit but I don't want to be wrong! We have already spent $70 on the CKP sensor. What I dont understand is how the circuit could work if I placed jumper wires in place of the main relay! Could it be resistance inside the ECM and the driver is deteriorating in which the extra current flow was enough to overpower the corrosion or arc across the open internal switch in the ECM? The pin for the grounded circuit on the main relay is #86 and all other circuits tested as they should. I checked to make sure that the fuse box wasn't causing the issue like internal corrosion but its not, I tested the ground wire where it plugs into the bottom and still no ground pathway. I need to know if there is an outside trigger to cause the ECM to ground that circuit that I'm missing before I order another ECM PLEASE.

I bypassed the main relay with some jumper wires, both control and switch sides of the circuit and it started just fine.

I'm concerned about the above comment. Can you tell me how you bypassed the control side of the relay? If you installed a jumper wire for the load side, no problem. If you installed a jumper wire on the control side, you cooked the PCM driver for that relay.
Second question. You said the PCM is not grounding the main relay, can you force the main relay to work by grounding the control wire at the PCM itself.

Only after swapping relays and doing everything for tests did I do the jumper wires, so I admit it wasnt a good idea but it was still starting will that arrangement and the only way I could get it to complete the circuit. Hindsight knowing what I know theb No, wouldnt to it again. Regarding 2nd question, I dont thnk that I tried backprobing that circuit at the ecm and grounding it, I would just be doing the computer's job for it. Would that be a definitive answer to whether the driver is bad? By the way there is no rpm signal, tach doesnt move when cranking, I read somewhere online that ecm looks for a signal from the ckp before triggering the main relay but it mentioned by someone in a forum. Doesnt look like it can be true from the wiring diagram

Im basically the only diagnostic tech at a used car dealer, the hours I can put in at the shop are limited due to other circumstances and needless to say there is a whole lot of pressure on me to get things running right and repaired using paperclips and shoe laces if you know what I mean. They dont want to spend any money on real diagnostic equip or there just isnt money in the budget etc

Trod wrote: Only after swapping relays and doing everything for tests did I do the jumper wires, so I admit it wasnt a good idea but it was still starting will that arrangement and the only way I could get it to complete the circuit. Hindsight knowing what I know theb No, wouldnt to it again. Regarding 2nd question, I dont thnk that I tried backprobing that circuit at the ecm and grounding it, I would just be doing the computer's job for it. Would that be a definitive answer to whether the driver is bad? By the way there is no rpm signal, tach doesnt move when cranking, I read somewhere online that ecm looks for a signal from the ckp before triggering the main relay but it mentioned by someone in a forum. Doesnt look like it can be true from the wiring diagram

Okay, so you did put a jumper on the control side of the relay. This means you absolutely did cook the computer driver for that relay. But it get's more complicated now because you caused this problem. That means there is another problem on that circuit that you missed. That is why I want you to perform the function of the ECM driver, at the computer itself. "Be the computer" and energize the circuit as the computer would.
Forget about the inputs and RPM signals for right now.
BTW, not all cars will show a tachometer flutter during cranking or show an RPM signal on the scan tool.

This main relay does NOT need an RPM signal to turn on. Part of it's job is to feed power to the Cam sensor. I didn't go any further with the diagram. This alone tells me this circuit should be powered up with just the key on.
The only inputs you are worried about now are the main computer power feeds, in particular an ignition power feed to the ECM.
But again, you jumped the control side of the relay with a jumper wire, so we already know the driver is bad. Unless you got lucky and there is a control side wiring problem in the circuit.
You can test the driver with a test light connected to battery positive and touch on the control wire AT the ECM and then just turn the key on.

I guess Im down to two variables, is there a signal or switch that causes the ecm to ground the main relay? Ignition? Ckp signal? Something that Ive overlooked? Or driver was on its way out in the ecm?

Trod wrote: I guess Im down to two variables, is there a signal or switch that causes the ecm to ground the main relay? Ignition? Ckp signal? Something that Ive overlooked? Or driver was on its way out in the ecm?

Slow down bro. Do your checks first. Relay drivers do not fail on there own. And I already answered your input questions. This circuit DOES NOT need inputs from the cam, crank and anything else to turn on. As soon as you turn the key on and the computer receives ignition power it WILL turn this driver on.
Tests that MUST be done.
#1 Relay installed, use an incandescent test light and ground the BLK/ORG wire on pin 67 at the PCM connector (computer plugged in, key on, backprobing the pin or piercing the wire). The relay should click and the main relay circuit should have power
Tell us the result
#2 Test the PCM driver, same wire, same backprobing tool or pierce from the last test, connect your test light to battery positive (computer plugged in, key on). The light should be lit if the driver is functioning. DO NOT replace the computer yet if this test fails.
Let us know

So why was the car still starting with the jumper wires in place of the relay is what I dont understand...I will replace the computer and check back in a week or so, hopefully it doesnt have to be programmed for Vin and all that, no anti theft system that I know of and no FOB remote keys came with it. I highly respect your opinion Paul, I just ordered your book and am subscribing to your premium class lectures as you can see I need them. I agree with you that by letting unhibited current flow to that circuit was a very bad idea and should have used a led test light in series with the control circuit to protect the ecm, do you think its possible that by doing so allowed enough current to jump the open driver or ground contacts in the ecm initially? Thats if the problem isolated to the ecm driver? Well maybe Im beating a dead horse at this point, I will let you know what happens. Appreciate the replies sincerely, Ive been out of the field for too long and now Im trying to get caught up, went to a tech school 20 yrs ago and now trying to help my brother with his used car dealership.

You have Paul personally guiding you through the process and you are not taking him up on it? I am perplexed.

So why was the car still starting with the jumper wires in place of the relay is what I dont understand...

Because you had the load side of the relay jumped

I will replace the computer and check back in a week or so

please do not do this yet, you have no confirmed the root cause, nor have you confirmed a failed driver yet. Do the tests I told you to do in my last post first.

do you think its possible that by doing so allowed enough current to jump the open driver or ground contacts in the ecm initially?

by jumping the control side, you sent unlimited current to that PCM driver and most likely blew it open, HOWEVER, if you have a wiring problem going to that relay (and I think you do), you may have dodged a bullet. Please do the checks I mentioned. There is a reason I am suggesting them.
Thanks and good luck.

I did do that test with the logic probe with it connected to positive and probing the ground that the computer supplies while someone cranked the engine over and got no ground light up on probe. This was after the jumper wires but car would still start with jumpers so ive complicated the possiblities obviously. Ive learned my lesson Im praying the driver in the ecm is the problem.

Trod wrote: I did do that test with the logic probe with it connected to positive and probing the ground that the computer supplies while someone cranked the engine over and got no ground light up on probe. This was after the jumper wires but car would still start with jumpers so ive complicated the possiblities obviously. Ive learned my lesson Im praying the driver in the ecm is the problem.

Did you try test #1 too?

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Wow I haven't seen Paul take a repair question in a while ! You are getting the best diagnostic advice available and you want to throw an ecm at it? You better perform the tests he asked you to do the way he asked you to do it before you burn up another ecm! Also if your not comfortable being the computer here's a great example (also one of my favorites)

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Hi Ben, Ive got nowhere else to go Ive done the tests to see if the ecm was grounding the circuit using the led test light, etc. Since Paul confirmed there are no other inputs that signal the ecm to ground the main relay then Im finished, new ecm it is. Anyone recommend a good repair service so I dont have to have the vin reprogrammed? Or even a service that enters in the vin ahead of time? Thanks again Paul for the responses you made my day!

Did you ground pin 67 at the ecm ? Did relay activate?

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Not sure of services to enter vin besides dealer. Often times a used ecm will work with the wrong vin number programmed

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Trod wrote: I disconnected the ECM and tested the black/orange wire by sending voltage through it and its fine.

Was this checked with just a voltmeter or was a load added as well?

I will do the tests as per your instructions Paul and report back. Thanks for taking the time to give me all this info.

I will try grounding it when I get back to the shop later in the week, thanks.