Positive fuel trim, no air leaks, confused
- Drunken Elvis
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Occasional code P0171, lean bank one. I'm sure this code gets set at idle.
STFT varies up and down a few percent but is usually positive at idle.
LTFT +%14 at idle engine warm, this number varies + - %2 or 3.
LTFT at 1500rpm no load, +%9.
LTFT at 2500rpm no load, +%4.
Driving under load, LTFT is at most + %2-3
O2 sensor voltage appears correct. Upstream cycles .9 to .1 volts about every 1.5 seconds.
After cat O2 sensor sit around .7 or .8 unless throttle is changed rapidly.
Suspect an air leak but try as I may, none to be found. Evap purge solenoid seems to pass a lot of air but there are times when it does not operate and the fuel trim remains high. It opens sometimes at idle. Is this right?
MAF reports 2.7 g/s of air at engine warm idle, 700 rpm. This figure varies from 2.25 - 3.1 g/s.
MAF reports 9 g/s at 2,500 rpm, no load.
Engine runs very well but sometimes will hesitate when applying throttle after backing off for a couple of seconds, such as gliding to a red
light and then applying throttle as it turns green. This happens with engine hot or cold.
I have cleaned the MAF sensor [hot wire type] a couple of times and the hesitation has gone away but only for a few days and then it returns.
I don't have a decent scanner I'd post some charts.
If the MAF sensor is under reporting air, why is the idle g/s so high? Don't want to just throw parts at it but I'm going to have to. MAF and O2 sensor?
Thanks for any help you may give.
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- Andreastech
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most of the times sounds like a vacum leak ...
Vacum leak at any direction ... EGR, intake gasket, hoses, evap valve etc ...
Dirty MAF ... as you already clean it, the point here is to see for difference in grams per sec, before cleaning and after ...
And in some more rare cases low fuel pressure
Or even a leak at exhaust
Did you check vacum hoses with water as Paul does ?? or smoke machine ??
You can test your O2 also by driving it lean or rich to see how fast is switching
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- Drunken Elvis
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I have not thoroughly looked at the exhaust for leaks. I assume you mean before the O2 sensor. The exhaust is quiet and the O2 sensor is tight no leaks that I can see. The exhaust is in a hard to see position.
I don't understand "test your O2 by driving it lean or rich"
The upstream O2 sensor does oscillate as per what appears to be normal.
I hate to be a parts changers but the MAF and O2 sensor are original so I'll probably just change them soon. Rather figure it out though.
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- bruce.oliver
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- Drunken Elvis
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Doesn't seem to matter, as when I remove the line to canister an plug the purge valve opening, the fuel trims don't really change much.
Question? Should this purge valve ever be open [draw vapours from the canister] at idle?
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- bruce.oliver
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Yes, that is normalDrunken Elvis wrote: Question? Should this purge valve ever be open [draw vapours from the canister] at idle?
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- Drunken Elvis
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- Andreastech
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you can add propane at the intake to drive it rich.
And, at the other hand, make an air leak to drive it lean.
All that are for testing reasons, to check how fast is reporting or not.
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- Drunken Elvis
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I just returned from a test drive with the scanner hooked up. [scanner is just an iphone] The LTFT is highest [%14 OR MORE] while gliding, such as when you are slowing a bit to time the next traffic light. When descending a hill in a lower gear where the engine is revving a little high as the engine is doing some braking, the LTFT drops to maybe %5. I would think a vacuum leak would produce even higher fuel trim during this condition.
Both the MAF and O2 sensors are old. I'll probably just replace them both.
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- Andreastech
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I think after all that vacuum leak check you done,
next step should be fuel pressure and delivery test.
Do you have other scantool with any by-direction controls, to make your life easy ??
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- Drunken Elvis
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Perhaps an injector is not functioning well at idle but functions at higher dwell times?
Twice in the past the hesitation has temporarily cleared up after cleaning the MAF sensor and I have put far more time into this diagnosis than the parts are worth. The car runs fine so I'm not really in a hurry but I may as well change the MAF and o2 sensor. Mean while I just wait for the solution to magically present itself.
I really do like to first figure out the exact cause of a problem but don't have any fancy scanner tools or any other way to trouble shoot further. I'll post the cure should I get lucky.
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- ScannerDanner
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www.scannerdanner.com/scannerdanner-prem...-a-p0171-part-1.html
My vehicle was a cobalt but it is the same engine. The reprogram did not fix our issue and in part 2 a new MAF was installed for the fix. But your's is a little different as your trim numbers improve at higher RPMs suggesting a vacuum leak.
It may be worth researching this reprogram
Don't be a parts changer!
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- Drunken Elvis
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SB #06-06-04-033
Thank you for the info. Maybe the sun will shine on me tomorrow and they'll offer the reprogramming for free.
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