08 Kia Sportage 2.7L LEAN Both Banks

Paul P. wrote:

Yes, first gear, but if 2nd is available it is the best, if the car has a tachometer watch it and slowly raise the rpm to WOT!!!

Not as easy as it sounds it might take a couple of trie, we want to see a data set that goes from idle to WOT with no RPM drop outs, which in some vehicles changes the loop status and definitely no fuel cuts.

Good Luck!!!

This car is coming back tomorrow evening, so thursday I plan to spend some time with it and hopefully get some good captures.  I will post them here.  Just letting you know in advance that it is coming!  I appreciate your help with this one!  Thank you!  

Ok so here are my captures from this morning, my best attempt at doing this.  I am used to doing wide open throttle tests, but not in a manner so slowly and patiently like this necessarily, haha.  I WAS able to select 2nd gear, so that did help.  sometimes I think I went too slowly on the throttle and it was maxing out the RPM before i was at 100% throttle.  Other times, I went slightly quicker on the throttle so to reach WOT completely before RPMs maxed out.   So take a look, let me know what we can gather from this.  I do see MAF reaching 350 kg/h.  

I have labeled the pictures "Try 1 1" which means, first try, first screen shot.  then "Try 1 2" which means, first try, second screen shot (SAME point in time, just scrolled down to show other PIDs).  and then like wise for Try 2, Try 3, and Try 4.  Hopefully that makes sense

Truthfully, I cant find anything necessary wrong.  BUT, I am NOT an expert yet, thats for sure.  let me know what you guys think!  

Ok only allowed me to post 6 photos, so here are the next two tries (3 photos each)

Also, I do notice that it went to Open Loop as I approached WOT.  Had a hard time avoiding that.  is that going to be an issue?  

Do your O2s respond to rich and leak conditions as they are supposed to? Do your trims get better or worse at higher rpms while vehicle is in park?
I personally like to use calculated load value, rpm, front o2s, mass airflow sensor voltage if available, throttle position sensors voltage or percentage when dealing with a lean condition caused by a Maf sensor or a fuel delivery issue. I will let others comment on your captures.

You can see in my previous posts, that I did inject propane into the system and oxygen sensors went and stuck rich. also pulled vacuum line and they went lean right away. I think I did graph most of those here. I do not have a load PID on this vehicle it seems.

This video may help you with your diagnosis.

Thank you!
I got a hold of a better smoke machine, because I do have a cheap one. and tried smoke testing again. and I did find some smoke coming out of the oil fill cap, so getting in through the pcv I suppose. PCV was one thing I also pinched off a while ago, with no change, but the valves are cheap, so I will try one. Another spot I saw a small amount of smoke, was coming out of the throttle body itself. it was leaking out from behind the TPS (not the IAC Valve) and also out from the springs on the other side of the butterfly where the cables hook up. so its like its leaking through the seals of where the butterfly goes through the TB housing on either side. its not a lot of smoke, but a little. does this sound like an issue? I did run it and spray that area down with brake clean and no change in RPM or trims, and also tried water, and no sounds or anything. What do you guys think?   I am only skeptical because I did try swapping the throttle bodies once already, with no change in trims or anything.  

Usually, the engine rpm drops when you pinch the pcv hose if it is stuck open. Install it and see if there is a change to the total fuel trims.

Bringing this back again, as I have this car back again. I am finding now that freeze frame has the BARO pressure low for what it should be in my area, and low currently also, about 23-24inhg when it should be about 29 today. There is no BARO sensor on this, no MAP sensor to infer it from. Maybe inferred from MAF and air intake temp? Or is the BARO Sensor internal to the ECM? Does anybody know how BARO pressure is inferred on this vehicle? I cant find it anywhere in SI either. Thank you!

Bringing this back again, as I have this car back again. I am finding now that freeze frame has the BARO pressure low for what it should be in my area, and low currently also, about 23-24inhg when it should be about 29 today. There is no BARO sensor on this, no MAP sensor to infer it from. Maybe inferred from MAF and air intake temp? Or is the BARO Sensor internal to the ECM? Does anybody know how BARO pressure is inferred on this vehicle? I cant find it anywhere in SI either. Thank you!

I would ignore the Baro data unless there is a PID for it, which I doubt. Your vehicle does not seem to be equipped with a Baro or a MAP sensor. Can you post a picture of the freeze frame data?

There is a PID under global but not under enhanced.   But it must be inferring it from somewhere though, right?  

here is freeze frame data

The p0171 code was set when the vehicle was under load( 1927 RPM) at 50 MPH, where total fuel trims in bank 1 and 2 were respectively 20 and 19% which leads us to believe that it is either a MAF issue or a fuel delivery issue. You can try to run the vehicle at idle and noted the total fuel trims for both banks and at 2000RPM to see if it matches the freeze frame data. No need to graph the trims. Just select just the 4 PIDs: STFT and LTFT for both banks at idle and 2000 RPM. Share the picture if possible/

I agree. We have pretty well ruled out fuel delivery issue. MAF has been of some question, but it sits at a perfect 2.77g/s at hot idle (2.7L). voltages hit what SI indicates it should at certain rpms, and it does reach 120g/s at WOT. I am not saying these are necessarily conclusive definites either, but does that sound like it could still be MAF to you?

I am not trying to make you work harder. I am just trying to gather some data that can help us fix the vehicle. The way Paul Danner attacks a p0171 code is by looking at the freeze frame data to see what temperature, what rpm, speed and total trims, then compares it with live data to determine the cause of the p0171. Sometime, the freeze frame data is not accurate. If  we could look at the total fuel trims for both banks at idle and 2000 RPM and determine if we have a vacuum leak or a MAF or fuel issue, that would be great. That would help us better in diagnosing the vehicle. That is what most of us, if not all, would suggest. As I said in the previous post, do not graph them. Just see if the total trims decreases or increases. You can also run the vehicle at WOT with all o2s data, TPS voltage and MAF voltage and Loop status chosen, as well as absolute load or calculated load to determine a vacuum leak (o2s will be rich) Maf and Fuel ( o2s will be lean) . If voltage on Maf is 4v or higher and TPS voltage is 4 v or higher and calculated load is 85% or more, we can conclude that the Maf is reporting accurately. Let us do that and see. Good luck.

No I do not think you are trying to make more work.  I am genuinely interested, and trying to learn more, how all the pieces fit together, and are very grateful for your help.  I did do some more runs this morning, and am attaching some captures.  Things I notice.  the Trims do go more rich than lean when under load, but go to zero at WOT because it goes into OL.  the O2s do go rich also, at WOT.  My load seems low, which has always been the case, but my MAF does hit 4v at WOT.  I do not have MAF or TPS V here on these captures because I am under global for these to get the Load PIDs.  enhanced does not offer load pids, but does have MAF and TPS voltage.  But on previous test drives, the MAF does hit 4v.  Also, on previous test drives, I was able to hit about 120g/s, if I let rpms climb close to 6k.  I am just getting leery and being careful with this old car...I already blew out the p/s pump from revving it so high haha.  

here are the captures,  I just went ahead and recorded all the pids requested, then opened the graphs to get the pictures.   the pictures go together in sets of 3 (the titles are labeled also).  so the 1st 3 go together and are the same moment in time, just scrolled to screen shot different pids.  then the same for the next 3, and the next 3.  Thanks for all your help! 

Ok I couldnt post 9 in one post, so here are the last 3  

The MAF is underreporting. 67% at WOT is too low . I would clean the MAF and see if you have any improvement.

Did clean the MAF before, a while ago, was in one of my original posts. At this point I will probably just change the MAF. I have been avoiding it to try and see if I could nail it down for sure, before its a $200 part. But I think there really is no way of knowing now at this point without a known good MAF, ive been leaning that way for a while also.

Let's make sure that you don't have a vacuum leak as well before replacing the MAF.
Let's look at the total fuel trim at idle. Just graph the STFT and LTFT for both banks at idle. If the total fuel trims is high, we may have a vacuum leak causing the MAF to read low. I remember in your freeze frame data that the total trims for both banks were 20% and 19% at 1900 RPM and got better at 5000 RPM which suggests a vacuum leak.