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2010 Honda Element 2wd automatic, alarming "screeching" noise while cranking

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6 months 3 weeks ago - 6 months 3 weeks ago #63281 by josegumby
Hi, I'm looking for some help in interpreting my pico captures.

A couple years ago my Element would occasionally make a short-duration "screeching" noise while cranking, but it didn't happen often enough that I could catch it on the scope.
But now, it's getting to be about every other time I start the car now.  When the "screeching noise" occurs (duration < 1 second), it's followed up by a second or two of cranking without spark.

Attached are two captures, along with two pictures, highlighting what I feel are the "suspect" areas of the captures.  

Setup:
* I removed the starter-cut relay and replaced it with a u-activate relay tool, in order to capture the current and voltage to the starter relay.  This also removes the under-dash starter-cut relay from the equation.
* I also put in a fuse-loop in place of the ignition-primary fuse, to capture the ignition events.
* Finally, I had a third current-clamp around the battery cable leading to the starter to capture the starter motor current draw.

Note: the u-activate was left in the "on" position, since the voltage is supplied by the ignition switch anyways.

My area of concern is a "hashy" area in the starter motor current when cranking.  This is when I hear the alarming "screeching" noise.  And right after it takes an extra second or so before the car starts.  Looking at capture 0002, I see that ignition is being cut when this occurs, 

In capture 0004, the first starting attempt went normal, with no screech; but the second crank had the screech, accompanied by the hash in the starter current.

Any idea what would be causing this?  I'm guessing it's simply a bad starter motor, but wanted to check the forum before I drop money into it, and find out I have a bad flywheel tooth or something else.

Also, how does the PCM know this is happening, in order for it to cut ignition?  

Thanks,
Curt

PS - Audio clip of the noise is also attached.

Here are the links to the full PCAP files; I couldn't attach them due to file size restrictions.

starter screech when cranking 0002
1drv.ms/u/s!Aixu37bgTE4ugatUO_Wj9KK-PupHzw?e=hFm8pV

starter screech when cranking 0004
1drv.ms/u/s!Aixu37bgTE4ugatXpMhRTzIT_Zt7tw?e=l92gp5
Attachments:
Last edit: 6 months 3 weeks ago by josegumby. Reason: typo - original said "has in the starter current", instead of "hash in the starter current".
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tyler

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6 months 3 weeks ago #63282 by Tyler
Excellent captures.   The audio file is appreciated, as well.

I can tell you that I've run into very similar symptoms on two different K24-equipped Hondas in the last couple of years. Almost identical complaint of noise during cranking. I ultimately recommended starter replacement on both, with careful examination of the flexplate with the starter out. Only one bought it, the other left.

Starter out, I couldn't see anything wrong with the teeth on the starter or the flexplate. Normal wear, nothing alarming. Engine and trans were original. No spacing problems I could see. New starter cranked consistently and never made noise. I'm confident it's fixed, but I was never quite happy with the why. Always figured it had something to do with the starter solenoid and it's ability to keep the bendix gear engaged with the flexplate.

As for the extended crank time and loss of ignition control, I don't have a clue! Maybe some of our smarter members will chime in with some ideas.

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6 months 3 weeks ago #63293 by Noah
I wonder if the starter is actually turning the engine when you notice that it loses spark control.
I wouldn't hesitate to put a starter in it. Inspect the flywheel while the starter is out, but I don't think I've seen flywheels eaten up on k24 engines before.
There's a TSB concerning starter engagement on V6 Accords I can remember reading. Something about removing all the converter bolts, shifting the converter one bolt hole clockwise and reassemble.

"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"

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