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Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
- Myhomegarage
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2 years 9 months ago #59652
by Myhomegarage
Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual was created by Myhomegarage
Hello, I am new here. My name is Pedro Fialho. I have a channel called MyHomeGarage on youtube. I have been a Licensed mechanic for 20 years in Ontario Canada. A platinum-certified mechanic at Honda. out of business for the last 8.
Now that introductions are out of the way let's get to the fun part. A friend of mine brought me this vehicle as a non-runner towed to my garage. The previous owner stated it does not crank and he didn't want anyone trying to diagnose it before buying it. Claims that the vehicle sat for two years and then it didn't start. so he buys it. LOL. Car shows up the catalytic converter has been cut out. it has brand-new front and rear pads, rotors, and calipers. New stab links etc. first look at the vehicle I open the oil cap and I immediately see metal shavings like that of a brake lathe. I pop the valve cover off. and it is all in the general area of the oil cap very large. I think it is sabotaged. Right away I know we need an engine no sense fighting this.
Battery has 0 volts. and it is Brand new. I charge it up. all the lights come on. immobilizer lights come on and go out as it should. i disconnect coils and just give it a crank to confirm that it at least turns over and the starter is ok etc. I find cut wires on the engine compartment firewall harness to the cruise control and abs. i repair the wires they look like they were cut and spliced on purpose. someone was playing with the driverside fireway small harness from the under the hood fuse box. 3 wires on the engine harness that leads under the dash to the ecm has 3 damaged wires on the ecm connectors. brown pgmfi or fuel pump has signs of someone being there. the HVAC sub harness behind the glove box has multiple cut wires brown connector.
fast forward. i put a used engine in it. new plugs, new clutch kit, new cat, I replair all the broken wires with new connectors from a used harness. solder shrink tube the whole nine yards.
Vehicle Cranks, you can smell the fuel, does not start. no spark at any of the coils.
I have checked for 12v ref at coils it is there.
I have checked for good grounds it is there
I have checked the junction connects where the grounds and power comes from no signs of damage.
I have checked the control side on the coil key on it has 0v as it should. when I crank and I know this isn't correct my volt meter jumps around which leads me to believe that there is activity there. the proper way would be to scope the control side and confirm that I am getting a square wave from to give me my field collage on the coil for spark.
no DTC's present.
ON crank the tach moves.
live data shows my rpm moving.
I have swapped crank sensors, and cam sensors just because I have spare ones from the old engine. nothing changes
My question is. If I had a Scope and the waveform was bad would I condemn the ECM. the more I dig the more I find evidence that someone has been in here before me digging? secondly, if I have a good control side and 12v and ground why wouldn't I have spark makes no sense... Im at a lost...I have all the factory manuals but there is no actual test for that from honda that I can find.
HOPE This is a fun one we can call figure out together been following your channel and learning for a few years now. thanks in advance to everyone here.
LINK for this vehicle video
Now that introductions are out of the way let's get to the fun part. A friend of mine brought me this vehicle as a non-runner towed to my garage. The previous owner stated it does not crank and he didn't want anyone trying to diagnose it before buying it. Claims that the vehicle sat for two years and then it didn't start. so he buys it. LOL. Car shows up the catalytic converter has been cut out. it has brand-new front and rear pads, rotors, and calipers. New stab links etc. first look at the vehicle I open the oil cap and I immediately see metal shavings like that of a brake lathe. I pop the valve cover off. and it is all in the general area of the oil cap very large. I think it is sabotaged. Right away I know we need an engine no sense fighting this.
Battery has 0 volts. and it is Brand new. I charge it up. all the lights come on. immobilizer lights come on and go out as it should. i disconnect coils and just give it a crank to confirm that it at least turns over and the starter is ok etc. I find cut wires on the engine compartment firewall harness to the cruise control and abs. i repair the wires they look like they were cut and spliced on purpose. someone was playing with the driverside fireway small harness from the under the hood fuse box. 3 wires on the engine harness that leads under the dash to the ecm has 3 damaged wires on the ecm connectors. brown pgmfi or fuel pump has signs of someone being there. the HVAC sub harness behind the glove box has multiple cut wires brown connector.
fast forward. i put a used engine in it. new plugs, new clutch kit, new cat, I replair all the broken wires with new connectors from a used harness. solder shrink tube the whole nine yards.
Vehicle Cranks, you can smell the fuel, does not start. no spark at any of the coils.
I have checked for 12v ref at coils it is there.
I have checked for good grounds it is there
I have checked the junction connects where the grounds and power comes from no signs of damage.
I have checked the control side on the coil key on it has 0v as it should. when I crank and I know this isn't correct my volt meter jumps around which leads me to believe that there is activity there. the proper way would be to scope the control side and confirm that I am getting a square wave from to give me my field collage on the coil for spark.
no DTC's present.
ON crank the tach moves.
live data shows my rpm moving.
I have swapped crank sensors, and cam sensors just because I have spare ones from the old engine. nothing changes
My question is. If I had a Scope and the waveform was bad would I condemn the ECM. the more I dig the more I find evidence that someone has been in here before me digging? secondly, if I have a good control side and 12v and ground why wouldn't I have spark makes no sense... Im at a lost...I have all the factory manuals but there is no actual test for that from honda that I can find.
HOPE This is a fun one we can call figure out together been following your channel and learning for a few years now. thanks in advance to everyone here.
LINK for this vehicle video
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2 years 9 months ago #59655
by Myhomegarage
Replied by Myhomegarage on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
with the key on, all the coils have the 12v supply and when the key is off it is 0v.
the control side from the PCM has 0v key on. when you crank it. it kinda jumps around.
I have not checked what happens when I crank on the 12v supply. but when I have a test light there it goes dim while I crank.
the control side from the PCM has 0v key on. when you crank it. it kinda jumps around.
I have not checked what happens when I crank on the 12v supply. but when I have a test light there it goes dim while I crank.
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2 years 9 months ago #59658
by Myhomegarage
Replied by Myhomegarage on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
3 wire coil.
Key on
1=12 v ( power feed
2=ground
3=0v wire from ecm
Key on cranking ( will confirm when I get home)
1= red lead to connector. Blk lead to negative
2=
3= going to confirm red lead to connector. And blk to battery negative.
When you say control are we talking about 12v supply or the ground side. Or ecm wire
Key on
1=12 v ( power feed
2=ground
3=0v wire from ecm
Key on cranking ( will confirm when I get home)
1= red lead to connector. Blk lead to negative
2=
3= going to confirm red lead to connector. And blk to battery negative.
When you say control are we talking about 12v supply or the ground side. Or ecm wire
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2 years 9 months ago #59663
by myhomegarage1
Replied by myhomegarage1 on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
Yeah 3 wire coil. I can check Injection pulse but I smell fuel. And smell it on dipstick. And it doesn't even try and start. Just smooth cranking. A scope would confirm my ecm control that's what I suspect. But I want to be 100%
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2 years 9 months ago #59674
by Myhomegarage
Replied by Myhomegarage on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
UPDATE: Key on 12V at the Feed. When I attempt to crank it. voltage stays between 10.5v-12.1V pretty much the battery voltage.
Side note before the vehicle just cranked steadily. now it seems to be more like crank crank crank crankkkk. crank crank crank crankkkk. but the battery is also getting a little weak. I am charging it up. So it is possible that I have a control side issue. not collapsing the field. once I get a scope I will update this. unless anyone has another way of checking control. the odds 4 separate control wires from ECU are all bad is very unlikely seems like something is affecting all cylinders so it has to be the ecu or something that all those 4 control wires share.
Side note before the vehicle just cranked steadily. now it seems to be more like crank crank crank crankkkk. crank crank crank crankkkk. but the battery is also getting a little weak. I am charging it up. So it is possible that I have a control side issue. not collapsing the field. once I get a scope I will update this. unless anyone has another way of checking control. the odds 4 separate control wires from ECU are all bad is very unlikely seems like something is affecting all cylinders so it has to be the ecu or something that all those 4 control wires share.
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2 years 9 months ago #59678
by Myhomegarage
Replied by Myhomegarage on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
your referring to the injector pulse? on the fuel injectors. I smell the fuel. I pulled a plug it smells like fuel . I can pull the rail and watch the fuel spray on crank. or just connect the volt meter and watch it I suppose. make sure its ok. its 2 wire I believe so just connect voltmeter across it. and see if it pulses. or should I wait to for my buddy to bring me the scope and watch it properly.
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2 years 9 months ago #59683
by myhomegarage1
Replied by myhomegarage1 on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
I have checked grounds. Removed them cleaned them and reinstalled. I have even added separate extra grounds directly from battery to the engine just incase.
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2 years 8 months ago #59836
by myhomegarage1
Replied by myhomegarage1 on topic Crank, No Start, No Spark 2003 Honda Element 2WD 5spd Manual
Vehicle is now repaired. Multi-layered problem. Pcm did not fix vehicle. Checked grounds on coil and although it has a ground. The resistance was higher than normal when compared to known good vehicle. When to ground block on engine and found the wire from the ground block for the 4 coils to the cylinder head block has abnormally higher resistance when compared to known good. Applied my own ground. Then the vehicle ecm fuse popped. Un plugged all coils and replaced fuse. One by one connected coils with key on until coil #4 popped fuse. Replaced coil #4 it was internally shorted. Vehicle now starts with me applying a ground. Reminded ground block and ran my own ground to cylinder head by passing the harness wire. Must be corroded or burnt something. Followed honda diagnosis and it leads to ecm issue. Had to really look at my readings on the volt meter when comparing to known good vehicle to really find the issue. Hope this helps. Anyone
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