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Which cylinder is blown?

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06 Sep 2020 13:51 - 06 Sep 2020 13:52 #42823 by Tyler
Which cylinder is blown? was created by Tyler
'02 Honda Civic 1.7L

Cody's pulse sensor installed in the radiator on the yellow trace. Ignition coil #1 control in green.





It's pre-Labor Day weekend. It's hot, you're tired, and out of f***s to give. You can pull one spark plug to (hopefully) see coolant in the cylinder and 150% prove the blown head gasket.

WHICH ONE DO YOU PULL?
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06 Sep 2020 14:17 #42825 by Dtnel
Replied by Dtnel on topic Which cylinder is blown?
What scope are you using? I noticed the interface seems a little different to me compared to what I’m used to seeing.

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06 Sep 2020 14:26 - 06 Sep 2020 14:27 #42826 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic Which cylinder is blown?
The captures were taken a Snap-On Triton D8. These are direct screenshots. I can post the .VSM files if it'd help.
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06 Sep 2020 18:49 #42831 by Chad
Replied by Chad on topic Which cylinder is blown?
#2

"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."

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06 Sep 2020 22:14 #42833 by juergen.scholl
Replied by juergen.scholl on topic Which cylinder is blown?
I'd pull #4 as the pressure rise coincides with this cylinder's last 30 to 40 degrees of the compression stroke.

An expert is someone who knows each time more on each time less, until he finally knows absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
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07 Sep 2020 07:59 #42837 by Chad
Replied by Chad on topic Which cylinder is blown?

juergen.scholl wrote: I'd pull #4 as the pressure rise coincides with this cylinder's last 30 to 40 degrees of the compression stroke.


You have clylinder #2 as the sync cylinder.




Tyler is synced on Cylinder #1.


"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."
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07 Sep 2020 09:04 #42838 by juergen.scholl
Replied by juergen.scholl on topic Which cylinder is blown?

Chad wrote:

juergen.scholl wrote: I'd pull #4 as the pressure rise coincides with this cylinder's last 30 to 40 degrees of the compression stroke.


You have clylinder #2 as the sync cylinder.


Tyler is synced on Cylinder #1.


I misread the sync. With the sync on #1 as in your picture cylinder#2 is the faulty one.

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10 Sep 2020 11:30 #42947 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic Which cylinder is blown?
Points for both of you. :cheer: #2 was absolutely steam cleaned.

To be honest, I actually pulled #4 first. :blush: It's been my experience that, when using the pulse sensor on cooling systems, there's usually a significant delay between the problem cylinder going to TDC compression, and the pulse showing up at the sensor. But this one seemed to be pretty direct! :silly: Smaller cooling system, maybe.

"But Tyler, why didn't you just use the head gasket tester and stick a fork in it from the beginning?" Well, I did:

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11 Sep 2020 09:51 #42970 by Noah
Replied by Noah on topic Which cylinder is blown?
I try explaining to the boss that when it comes to the chemical test, fail is fail. Pass is just inconclusive.

Do you find the pressure pulse on the rad to be a worthwhile test?
I mean, is there not pressure pulses taking place in the cooling system as the pump moves coolant through the system?
I'm not being a naysayer, just trying to understand the variables.

Too much plus more equals just right.

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11 Sep 2020 10:02 #42971 by juergen.scholl
Replied by juergen.scholl on topic Which cylinder is blown?

Noah wrote: I try explaining to the boss that when it comes to the chemical test, fail is fail. Pass is just inconclusive.

Do you find the pressure pulse on the rad to be a worthwhile test?
I mean, is there not pressure pulses taking place in the cooling system as the pump moves coolant through the system?
I'm not being a naysayer, just trying to understand the variables.


My observation is yes, there are pulsations present during "normal" pump operation. They show up as a periodically minor ripple. A failed gasket will cause additional spikes riding on top of tis base pattern. You might compare its appearance to a relative compression test when one exhaust valve does not open or a faulty regulator diode leaks ac-voltage.

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11 Sep 2020 10:55 - 11 Sep 2020 11:05 #42972 by Chad
Replied by Chad on topic Which cylinder is blown?

Do you find the pressure pulse on the rad to be a worthwhile test?


Absolutely. It has its time and place. But, as with any test, it may not always be THE test. Some systems are very hard to pull a usable waveform.

I mean, is there not pressure pulses taking place in the cooling system as the pump moves coolant through the system?


Turbulence from the water pump will not sync, perfectly, with (Relative) Compression, or Firing Order.
If possible, it is best to remove the drive belt for the water pump while performing this test. Thermostat position/location will be a factor, too.

"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."
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11 Sep 2020 21:13 - 11 Sep 2020 21:17 #43000 by Tyler
Replied by Tyler on topic Which cylinder is blown?

Noah wrote: Do you find the pressure pulse on the rad to be a worthwhile test?


Not at first? But after I caught a few failures, I got a lot more comfy with it. Nowadays I'll sometimes do it before, or completely in place of, the blue water test.

I've also been experimenting with using a manometer in place of the pressure pulse sensor. Failing vehicles generate enough pressure in the cooling system to get picked up as inH2O, but not enough to move the needle on a cooling system pressure tester.

If it helps, here's a comparison shot of a GMC 6.0L that is not blown (as far as I know, anyway):



You can see the typical 'noise' that Juergen was referring to.

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12 Sep 2020 07:30 #43002 by Noah
Replied by Noah on topic Which cylinder is blown?
Thank you for the valuable insight gentlemen. Looks like something I may dabble in moving forward.

Too much plus more equals just right.

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12 Sep 2020 11:23 - 12 Sep 2020 11:28 #43008 by Chad
Replied by Chad on topic Which cylinder is blown?
I decided to do some, long over-due, cleaning and organizing of my waveform Library, this morning. I found this capture for a Chrysler Cirrus 2.5L cooling system pulses. There is nothing wrong in this capture. I was just playing around. I was comparing testing locations. And, comparing CRANKING vs. RUNNING. The BLUE trace is a Nicholson Pulse Sensor (NPS) located in the Radiator cap. The GREEEN trace is a First Look Sensor (FLS), placed in the Overflow tank. As you can see in the cranking waveform, location of the sensor affected the shape of the pattern. And while the engine is running, it becomes a VERY turbulent/dynamic environment.


Engine Cranking:




Engine Running:


"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."
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16 Sep 2020 09:31 #43146 by Dtnel
Replied by Dtnel on topic Which cylinder is blown?
Isn’t that the one referred to as the “date”... I’d hate to have a date with my scan tools.. Ha ha ....

Don’t know why snap on feels they has to release a slightly modified version of the previous years to. If they were just to slam the rolls with I-5 or even I-7 core processor with the cost of scan tools and then turn and throw a kick a** video graphics card for video, 1tb hard drive and minimum 16gb memory that’s upgradeable people woul buy them even with lesser software as I’d know it would be capable hardware wise for awhile instead of these Cheap celeron processors.

I have a Zeus I’ll sell at a loss to me to get out from under it as it’s current and will be until spring 2021 Nd if warranty is transferable then that’s even better for a buyer. Had I only knew a couple years ago what I know now. Every tool has its pots and cons and purpose.

In the end they just interpret data that were requesting and we still have to determine if the data is good.

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