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issues finding the right equipment for doing skipped timing belt test

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29 Apr 2019 18:50 - 29 Apr 2019 19:17 #29123 by overdrive138
Need info on what type of equipment and how I should hook it all up. this will be for relative compression syncing with firing events and timing belt/chain test.
the videos show clamps but doesn't really explain what type of clamps on what wires. is it a inductive pick up or capacitive etc what are the differences? I also understand for cop type ignition i would be using a paddle type probe. This will be used on my verus. thx
Last edit: 29 Apr 2019 19:17 by overdrive138.

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29 Apr 2019 18:57 - 29 Apr 2019 18:57 #29124 by overdrive138
I forgot to include i needed the sec ignition waveform tools needed and hookups also
Last edit: 29 Apr 2019 18:57 by overdrive138.

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29 Apr 2019 21:45 - 29 Apr 2019 21:50 #29126 by Chad

overdrive138 wrote: Need info on what type of equipment and how I should hook it all up. this will be for relative compression



syncing with firing events


This can be done many ways and, really, depends on the vehicle, type of ignition system, and what equipment you have available. Open up a second channel. Set your trigger to this channel. You could trigger off of Primary Voltage, Primary Current, Secondary, In-cylinder pressure...to name a few.

and timing belt/chain test.


Open up a couple more channels. You'll need to backprobe the Cam and Crank signal circuits. Here is ScannerDanner doing a Cam/Crank on a Chrysler. The type of waveform you get will depend on what kind of sensor you have. Generally, 2-wire sensors produce and AC sine wave. 3-wire sensors, generally, produce square waves.

the videos show clamps but doesn't really explain what type of clamps on what wires.


www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=affiliate_go&...ric-brand-p8486.html

I also understand for cop type ignition i would be using a paddle type probe.


www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=affiliate_go&...n-and-COP-p8764.html

www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=affiliate_go&...COP-probe-p9335.html

There are cheap, DIY, methods for the probes, too. Such as, simply, laying a test-lead on the coil. Results will vary, even with the top-dollar tool, depending on how well insulated the COP's are.

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"Understanding a question is half an answer."
Last edit: 29 Apr 2019 21:50 by Chad.
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29 Apr 2019 21:47 - 29 Apr 2019 22:11 #29127 by Chad

overdrive138 wrote: I forgot to include i needed the sec ignition waveform tools needed and hookups also


www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=affiliate_go&...apacitive-p9182.html

store.snapon.com/Secondary-Ignition-Adap...-VERUS--P647757.aspx

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Last edit: 29 Apr 2019 22:11 by Chad.

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29 Apr 2019 22:45 #29128 by overdrive138
I already ordered a secondary ignition probe. but im still looking for an external inductive rpm trigger probe, aes has them but its on backorder till jun. so I would hook up my secondary ignition probe to the coil wire and my rpm trigger to cyl1 in parade to find out what cyl is what on the screen for waste spark and reg ignition systems? this is the part i dont understand what to use or buy.

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29 Apr 2019 22:49 #29129 by overdrive138
And if i was to use primary voltage for syncing dont i need an attenuator for my test lead? i have both the book and the premium class and having a hard time finding what specific toolsto buy to do these test

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29 Apr 2019 22:55 #29130 by overdrive138
universal testing methods is the chapter i just watched. ive seen it done with 2 clamps doest say what it is though
Ignition coil operation/interpreting secondary ignition waveforms (pg 13 expanded content)
Secondary ignition waveforms - C.O.P., waste spark systems (pg 13-14 expanded content)

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30 Apr 2019 00:28 #29133 by Chad

overdrive138 wrote: so I would hook up my secondary ignition probe to the coil wire and my rpm trigger to cyl1 in parade


Yes.

to find out what cyl is what on the screen for waste spark and reg ignition systems? this is the part i dont understand what to use or buy.


You don't need to buy anything else. For an Ignition parade, The Verus will do it for you. When you select your Channel input (test lead, low amp, pressure, Ignition, etc) in the Ignition setup, you can select the firing order for your vehicle. The firing order will appear on the screen.

And if i was to use primary voltage for syncing dont i need an attenuator for my test lead?


Not with the Verus. Ignition Coil Primary Voltage spikes can range up to 400 volts. The Verus can handle up to 400 volts without attenuation. Other scopes, have a lower Maximum Voltage input, such as the Pico Scope 4425 with a Maximum Voltage input of 200 volts.

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30 Apr 2019 00:58 #29134 by overdrive138
Awesome! So all i would need is a rpm trigger correct? Cause i have the sec ignition probe. Thx

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30 Apr 2019 08:22 - 30 Apr 2019 08:24 #29136 by Chad

overdrive138 wrote: im still looking for an external inductive rpm trigger probe, aes has them but its on backorder till jun




I have an extra. Make an offer. I would be happy to ship it out to you.

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Last edit: 30 Apr 2019 08:24 by Chad.
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30 Apr 2019 13:29 #29142 by overdrive138
I was reading on aes about the verus inductive rpm trigger having issues showing up on the screen when syncing sec ignition waveforms is this true? how much you want for it ? I was honestly just gonna get the aes external one .

heres what was posted on aes description

Snap-on scopes have an internal trigger, why do I need an external trigger?
The MODIS, VERUS, and Vantage Pro have a dedicated ignition trigger input that does not display the trigger signal, this can put you at a disadvantage. For example, when you slow the time base, if the trigger pulse is not visible it is difficult to judge when the next firing event occurs. With the trigger pulse on display you know exactly when it happens in relation to the other waveforms on display.

Seeing is believing! With a trigger pulse displayed on the scope you:
- can see the exact relationship between the trigger pulse and the other waveforms on display.
- will know when other signals are displayed according to the firing of #1 cylinder: For example, identify cylinders for cranking compression test or running cylinder contribution tests.
- can make adjustments to time base and still maintain the organization of the waveforms on the screen regardless time setting
- can use it as a reference point to correctly superimpose or parade a succession of individual events such as ignition signals even at slow time base settings.

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30 Apr 2019 14:38 #29144 by Chad
For Secondary Parade, you don't NEED to see the trigger. The first Ignition event is the trigger. The "trigger" just determines which Ignition event will be displayed first, in the parade, or raster. Then, Firing order is applied. As for "normal" triggering, beyond Ignition Parade, raster, etc., I can't say I have ever had a problem using it. I know I HAVE used it but, admittedly, not often (or recently), other than Ignition. I wonder if software version could be a factor, or a setting configuration, maybe.

As I said, I have an extra (more than 1, actually). I haven't used it in years, and probably won't. If you want it, I'll send it to you for $25, postage included.

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30 Apr 2019 19:44 #29148 by overdrive138
I already ordered the aes trigger . thx for the help much appreciated

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01 May 2019 04:55 #29154 by Andy.MacFadyen
Good thread :-)

The one thing I will add is if doing cam-crank synch tests it really is essential to have a decent of back probes really fine ones and also thicker ones as getting a poor connection can make getting a good test more difficult.

Remember also you can do a relative compression just using battery voltage but the trace will be upside down (low volts = higher cylinder pressure) so just use the invert function of the scope.

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02 May 2019 13:29 #29197 by overdrive138
Good to know i could do relative comp without an amp probe. How would u hook your scope up? Any downfalls to doing it this way?

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02 May 2019 15:55 - 02 May 2019 16:03 #29217 by Chad
Simply, connect a test lead to battery (+). As you crank the engine, you will see the voltage rise and fall. This corresponds to the Starter Load on the battery. The waveform will be the MIRROR image of a CURRENT waveform (Valleys represent compression). Using the INVERT feature will flip it so that it will look like the CURRENT waveform (Peaks represent compression).

The downfall of this is that your BASE voltage will be CRANKING voltage. (10 volts +/-). If you want to Zoom in, you will need to use AC COUPLING and lower the voltage scale. AC COUPLING will remove the 10 Volt DC Baseline, and set you on a 0 volt AC Baseline.


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Last edit: 02 May 2019 16:03 by Chad.
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02 May 2019 16:15 #29220 by Andy.MacFadyen
Provided you there is no great problemkeep in mind the voltage method is upside down from current there is no great problem especially if your scope can invert the trace by a software option.
With relative compression using AC probe setting is the best way to work when using voltage or current methods.

The AC setting is also a useful feature if you are looking at alternator ripple problems.

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