[FIXED] Bad TIPM or Starter relay port on PT 09

Tyler wrote:

c0astl|ght wrote: Alright. I checked the starter relay with the test light again.

With engine off I checked for grounds and got a green light for pin 4 and 5 only. I didn't crank the engine and check again (which I should have done). I also noticed that with the engine off and checking grounds for pin 4 and 5, pin 5 shows a dim light while pin 4 is bright.

With engine off I checked for power and got no power at any of the pins of starter relay. With the engine cranked I got a red light for pin 1 only (not as bright as pin 4 showing green).

So in hindsight I forgot to crank during ground test only to check the lights again, but my assistant/mom is gone now. I'll have to find a new assistant or wait till she gets back today. But so far it seems like I haven't fried anything as everything is the same as before as far as ground lights and power lights lighting up.

OK, I like those readings! Well, it sounds like we're still where we were before, anyway. Seeing power on pin 1 makes me feel a lot better. :lol:

I dunno if it'd help at all, but you can watch this ScannerDanner video for possible ways to do the testing yourself. The video is technically about a transmission problem, but the methods for testing the relay itself are still applicable.

Not trying to rush you or anything! I just know how much I hate waiting around for an assistant.

Thank you Tyler and Cheryl. I can't thank you enough.

I'll also check grounds again during crank.

I've got a feeling the problem is between the ignition switch and the starter relay. We'll find out soon.

Thanks again!

Oops. I mean I will try your suggestion Tyler and stick back probe into ignition switch and other at the starter relay pin 2.

Alright. Thanks for the video.

Looks like this might end in the same way as the video. I'm hoping not because I will have to go thru wire harnesses - which I have no experience in. That may have to go to the dealership...

So I did the wire jump test again from pin 1 to 4 and I got the car to start.

I also wrapped some wire around my starter relay and pushed it in partially to pin 2 (red/blue) of starter relay port and took the other end of the wire and stuck it to the ignition switch pin 4 (pink/blue) with the back probe in while engine cranked. Car started! That was amazing!

So I'm thinking it's a wire between ignition switch and the starter relay now.

Funny thing is now I found a green light on pin 1 of starter relay with engine off (connected to ( + )) using the test light.
But when I put the test light to the same pin with the engine cranked changing to ground ( - ), I see red light for power (which is still normal for test light grounded).

So I don't know if that is something to be concerned about.

Also my ground eyelet I previously repaired is now on a new ground sharing it with another eyelet. Lost the bolt during re-installation. Fell down somewhere. Is this okay? No harm sharing ground with another eyelet right? While the eyelet was sharing new ground I did these tests and the car still started.

So it's safe to say the wiring is the problem hey? between the ignition switch and the starter relay.

c0astl|ght wrote: I also wrapped some wire around my starter relay and pushed it in partially to pin 2 (red/blue) of starter relay port and took the other end of the wire and stuck it to the ignition switch pin 4 (pink/blue) with the back probe in while engine cranked. Car started! That was amazing!

Sweet! :woohoo: Very happy to hear this. Not only does it prove a wiring problem, but it also proves that nothing got harmed earlier.

Funny thing is now I found a green light on pin 1 of starter relay with engine off (connected to ( + )) using the test light.
But when I put the test light to the same pin with the engine cranked changing to ground ( - ), I see red light for power (which is still normal for test light grounded).

Are you using an incandescent test light, or some kind of logic probe? Power Probe? :huh: Nothing wrong with those at all, just trying to make sense of your observations. Where are you seeing the 'green light'?

Also my ground eyelet I previously repaired is now on a new ground sharing it with another eyelet. Lost the bolt during re-installation. Fell down somewhere. Is this okay? No harm sharing ground with another eyelet right? While the eyelet was sharing new ground I did these tests and the car still started.

I think you're OK? As long as your connections are solid, then I don't see a problem.

Looks like this might end in the same way as the video. I'm hoping not because I will have to go thru wire harnesses - which I have no experience in. That may have to go to the dealership...

No way! You can totally handle this. Check it out:



This is what we're after. C104, a connector that has our suspect wire in it. I'll do some research tomorrow and find where C104 is, exactly. Once we find C104, we can test for power there during cranking (with the jumper wire removed). If we find it, that tells us to work towards the starter relay. If we don't, that tells us to work towards the ignition switch.

Tyler wrote: Sweet! :woohoo: Very happy to hear this. Not only does it prove a wiring problem, but it also proves that nothing got harmed earlier.

Thank the Lord! (I am not Christian but I believe in da God )

Now I just gotta find that bolt stuck down there somewhere.

Tyler wrote: Are you using an incandescent test light, or some kind of logic probe? Power Probe? :huh: Nothing wrong with those at all, just trying to make sense of your observations. Where are you seeing the 'green light'?

I was using a test light only for checking power and ground when you requested I check the starter relay pins 1, 2, 4, and 5. This is it but I need to take a new picture of it testing relay:



The test light when hooked to B+ will turn green when put on B-. So with it hooked to B+ and then putting test light to pin 1, 4, and 5, it turned green. Very dim for pin 1 (barely noticeable), dim for pin 5, and bright for pin 4. It should have only been green for pin 4 and 5 as I found earlier but since pin 1 is very dim I barely noticed it the whole time lighting green - showing ground. That's when test light is hooked up to B+.

During crank though, pin 1 does not show a green light anymore.

However it goes back to normal when the test light is hooked to B- and I touch pin 1 of starter relay. It turns bright red during crank.

Tyler wrote:

Also my ground eyelet I previously repaired is now on a new ground sharing it with another eyelet. Lost the bolt during re-installation. Fell down somewhere. Is this okay? No harm sharing ground with another eyelet right? While the eyelet was sharing new ground I did these tests and the car still started.

I think you're OK? As long as your connections are solid, then I don't see a problem.

Nice. :lol: I just have to make do until I find a new bolt or the old one later on. Perhaps I should leave it alone. So much work down there. Lol.

Tyler wrote:

Looks like this might end in the same way as the video. I'm hoping not because I will have to go thru wire harnesses - which I have no experience in. That may have to go to the dealership...

No way! You can totally handle this. Check it out:

This is what we're after. C104, a connector that has our suspect wire in it. I'll do some research tomorrow and find where C104 is, exactly. Once we find C104, we can test for power there during cranking (with the jumper wire removed). If we find it, that tells us to work towards the starter relay. If we don't, that tells us to work towards the ignition switch.

Oh man. This is going to be something.

I guess I could try. I already soldered on 8 connections total so far.

Alright. I'll give it a try. I'll look up c104 as well. Thanks again man.

I owe you a beer or something.

Alright I found both the connector sides of C104:





I also have all the diagrams from locating C104. I know where some of them already are but unsure of some other locations.

I'm guessing the next step is to check voltage drop on each side and replace the wire on the bad side right? I hope I don't have to replace wire along side steering column. That will be like facing Mike Tyson in his prime. :lol:

Actually I know that these days people are social engineering so I guess to pay you back I will go give a homeless person some money and some food for helping me out.

Gotta pay it forward.

Don't fall victim to social engineering.

Glad to see you found the connector diagram! Good stuff. I found a decent picture of the locatipn:

drive.google.com/file/d/0BwIz-f3J815JOHV...Gs/view?usp=drivesdk

This is the best I can do while at work, I'll be on again later tonight. C104 is on the left side, near the DLC.

Lets start with a voltage reading on both wires during cranking. You totally can replace the whole wire if you want, but it may not be needed. Heck, you might even see the problem once you get your head under the dash.

Tyler wrote: Glad to see you found the connector diagram! Good stuff. I found a decent picture of the locatipn:

drive.google.com/file/d/0BwIz-f3J815JOHV...Gs/view?usp=drivesdk

This is the best I can do while at work, I'll be on again later tonight. C104 is on the left side, near the DLC.

Lets start with a voltage reading on both wires during cranking. You totally can replace the whole wire if you want, but it may not be needed. Heck, you might even see the problem once you get your head under the dash.

Alright. Thanks again.

I was able to pull out 2 of the diagrams for the C104 connectors.

They both seem to be behind the speed gauges under the dashboard. I checked the other side of the windsheild but there is nothing there except washer fluid, pumps, and hoses:







The last connector also looks alot like the connectors from the TIPM, but when I check the wiring diagram for the TIPM, it has no connector going by C104. The highest number on there is C11. So I have no idea where this is. Possibly behind the speed gauges as well?

I've also checked under the steering wheel but no indications of connector C104. Just a bunch of wires that seem to point me in the wrong direction:





These two connectors have 4 pins and 5 pins respectively. No where near the 43 pins that C104 connector has.

I'm going to try and pry the dash board out somehow. I've got to find those connectors. Well. Wish me luck.

Woah that's a lot of work to pull out a dashboard for 2 connectors.



Here they are taking out a Mazda dashboard and doing the whole works just to get at 1 plug.

I saw other videos related for the PT Cruiser but they just show people replacing the speed gauges / instrument clusters. Those videos showed nothing behind there with any connectors.

:huh:

There is no other way but to remove the whole thing hey?

I think I found the connector. It should be the white one on the left (there is a black one on the right). This matches the diagram:





I was trying to figure out how to move that grey frame in the way of the white connector but I think I've got to remove the whole dashboard to do so. I guess I figured out some of it. :side:

I wasn't able to locate the other C104 connector. Perhaps once the dashboard is removed I will be able to see it. :side:

Hey, that white connector looks promising! Yeah, that grey bracket probably isn't gonna move... Can you pop the connector loose of it's mounting? That'd help with access.

For the record, if this was my vehicle (or belonged to someone related to me), I'd run a new wire LONG before I'd pull the whole dash. I was hoping C104 would be more easily accessible than this, but it's not looking easy. No hate from me if you'd rather run a wire or take it to a professional.

Tyler wrote: Hey, that white connector looks promising! Yeah, that grey bracket probably isn't gonna move... Can you pop the connector loose of it's mounting? That'd help with access.

For the record, if this was my vehicle (or belonged to someone related to me), I'd run a new wire LONG before I'd pull the whole dash. I was hoping C104 would be more easily accessible than this, but it's not looking easy. No hate from me if you'd rather run a wire or take it to a professional.

I can give it a shot to remove it tomorrow but that leaves the other connector somewhere else close-by. :side:

How do I run a long new wire? Do you mean to solder the old wire from ignition switch and plug it into starter relay like the testing I did earlier? That could be done but I don't know how long the wire will last like that. It would probably work for a month or so.

I think I hit a dead end on this one. I could give it another try to remove the grey frame/dashboard but damn it's looking like a Mike Tyson here.

I understand if you want to wash your hands clean from this one. This is going to be no easy task. I even thought I knew where the connectors were, but then I realized I was wrong so even I thought it would be an easy fix. Still, I'm going to try and give it another shot tomorrow. Thanks again.

c0astl|ght wrote: How do I run a long new wire? Do you mean to solder the old wire from ignition switch and plug it into starter relay like the testing I did earlier? That could be done but I don't know how long the wire will last like that. It would probably work for a month or so.

Soldering works, or you could use some heat shrink butt connectors, either way. Go from the ignition switch, past C104, out to pin 2 at the starter relay. Rather than what you did earlier, I'd suggest cutting that red/dark blue wire close to the relay, and connect your new wire there. Follow the existing wiring where possible, use the zip ties to keep the new wire from rubbing. You can also use pieces of 1/4" rubber hose, split lengthwise, as a standoff when necessary.

It won't be pretty. But, with some careful routing and zip ties, you can make it a permanent repair. It's not the ideal repair, I know, but it beats the heck out of pulling the dash!

I understand if you want to wash your hands clean from this one.

Screw that! I'd love to see this one fixed, one way or another.

Tyler wrote: Soldering works, or you could use some heat shrink butt connectors, either way. Go from the ignition switch, past C104, out to pin 2 at the starter relay. Rather than what you did earlier, I'd suggest cutting that red/dark blue wire close to the relay, and connect your new wire there. Follow the existing wiring where possible, use the zip ties to keep the new wire from rubbing. You can also use pieces of 1/4" rubber hose, split lengthwise, as a standoff when necessary.

It won't be pretty. But, with some careful routing and zip ties, you can make it a permanent repair. It's not the ideal repair, I know, but it beats the heck out of pulling the dash!

I hear what you're saying. :lol: I did check out some other videos that got under the dash but it seems like that doesn't get anywhere deep. Still seems like alot more work to pull out more things.

I'll try to give it another shot but if it doesn't work I will take your suggestion. I can cut the red/blue wire and solder it to a new wire which I will solder to the ignition blue/pink wire. I like your ziptie ideas.

You know what that might just work as well.

Alright, time for some work today.

Again I appreciate the help and I'll let you know how it goes.

You rock man!

You rock! None of this is easy work, as you know. Take pride knowing that these are pretty much the same struggles a professional would go through.

This may be Captain Obvious, but be sure to try starting the engine before putting everything back together. Once you're confident that the new wire works, you can slap the dash back together.

You got it sir!

Well I feel like a professional now. :lol: I'm actually headed down that way but that is another story.

Well either way, today it's either going to be I get to the connectors or the wire is soldered on. I've been at this for almost 2 months now and I want my mom to drive her car again.

Soon I've got to look for work in the field. This is what I should have been doing years ago.

Alright. I will post the update as soon as I can!

Just had to grab some breakfast.

Success!

Thank you Tyler.

I appreciate everyone's help but you made it happen brother!

I soldered on new connections, greased them up with dielectric grease and heat shrink for long lasting results.

I'm so happy this is done. Sure I got a few more tweaks here and there but once I clear codes the car should be running again smoothly.

So yeah! The car runs and I just gotta put back the air filter and air sensor cause I smell some gas in there but it can be fixed.

Thanks again Tyler! You're the man!!!

Nah, you da man! Congratulations on the fix, sir!

You should definitely be proud of this one. Plus, think of all the money that was saved! No tow bill, no parts throwing at the dealer. Sorry, I know there are legit dealers out there... Somewhere? :lol:

Also, I had a glance at the forum statistics just now, check it out!



I love seeing long threads like this.