2007 Ford e150 4.6L - Hard Starts, Random Shutdowns

Loachuck wrote: Hello wfseward - have the coil packs and/or spark plugs been replaced?

Holy crap that was it!.
I had ordered a set of Motorcraft coils and plugs, thinking "couldnt hurt" and as I had purchased the van with no maintenance records, didn't know the state of those parts. But I was a bit intimidated by the prospect of bloody knuckles and other horrors, after reading stories of ford triton spark plug issues on the web. Now the scoop on this engine (2 valve 4.6) I did discover is, opposite of the 3v versions, they have a tendency to blow out as opposed to getting stuck and breaking off.

The truth is, it wasn't that hard at all. Once you know where the coil screw is, and armed with various extensions in both 1/4 drive (for coil bolts) and 3/8 drive for the plugs. Also was very careful to blow out plug well before removing.
Now here is the odd thing, 4 of the 8 plugs where barely tight, and came out way too easy. there was some kind of gritty residue on the threads, I would imagine was anti seize that was pretty cooked. And there was one aftermarket coil in the mix, the rest factory. The plugs actually looks in pretty good shape, although the loose plugs had carbon on the thread body.

Now I did find a few sites that recommend no anti seize on these engines, with a higher torque value of 28-30ft lbs.
Fired up the van after resetting the PCM , figuring it would change the idle settings. But engine was stumbling and missing, and it was WTF moment. but I looked over and saw I had left one of the injector plugs off, and after connecting that, bingo! smooth idle.

Of course having lived with this problem for months and 2 shops trying to fix, I was skeptical it was actually fixed. Well 4 days later, with a bunch of city driving with fairly aggressive throttle (which almost always triggered limp mode before) , no more failsafe mode. The new PCM ( ouch, I know), is still dialing in shifts and it gets smoother the more I drive

Now this all begs the question, what was going on with the cylinders/coils plugs, that would not throw a specific code, but affect power/torque enough to cause the P061b code and failsafe mode? Never a hint of issue when testing these with scanner, and never a misfire reported. All the hours scanning the net for info on this code, almost always pointed to the drive by wire system (throttle body, TPS, ETC, Pedal sensor) errors or the air intake path (MAF/unmetered air) then after that, it was faulty janky PCM. Even the dealer, who had the van for 4 days, reprogrammed PCM, said they thought it was fixed, (failed before I got out of the driveway) had on the work order "If this issue is not fixed (by reprogram) pin point troubleshoot procedure then recommends replacing PCM"

I will say the first shop I took it to, an independant, did ask me about the condition of the coils/plugs, which was unknown to me . But, is it because these older ford engines have such a bad rep regarding plugs that mechanics shy away from actually pulling a few to check?

Isn't there a way to test coils under load condition in the shop? if not there should be.
Also its kind of embarrassing to admit, but early on in this saga, my girlfriend, who doesn't know much about mechanics, said, "you should check the spark plugs". She's gloating now, and I will listen more carefully to her from now on.
The ultimate takeaway from this, When you buy an older used vehicle with unknown history, bite the bullet and change the dang coils and plugs, oh and fuel filter, air filter, bla bla bla.

wfseward wrote: Holy crap that was it!.

...

Well 4 days later, with a bunch of city driving with fairly aggressive throttle (which almost always triggered limp mode before) , no more failsafe mode. The new PCM ( ouch, I know), is still dialing in shifts and it gets smoother the more I drive

Holy fix out of nowhere! :woohoo: VERY well done. The update is hugely appreciated.

Now this all begs the question, what was going on with the cylinders/coils plugs, that would not throw a specific code, but affect power/torque enough to cause the P061b code and failsafe mode?

Exactly what I was wondering. :silly: Not trying to doubt your fix, but did you remove/replace anything else while you were doing the coils/plugs? Any loose air intake clamps found? Last year, I was thinking about this code being caused by air measurement faults, but now I'm not so sure.

I will say the first shop I took it to, an independant, did ask me about the condition of the coils/plugs, which was unknown to me . But, is it because these older ford engines have such a bad rep regarding plugs that mechanics shy away from actually pulling a few to check?

Maybe? It's even worse when you go to check a plug on one of these, and find that the thread repair insert came out with the plug. Now you get to reinstall a thread insert for free.

But honestly, unless I suspect a misfire, I wouldn't go digging into this ignition system either.

Isn't there a way to test coils under load condition in the shop? if not there should be.

There is! A secondary ignition probe with a scope is ideal for these engines. With the doghouse off, it's easy to brake torque the engine in the shop with the probe on a coil, and see exactly what the ignition system is doing. Makes spotting bad coils a breeze.

Tyler wrote:

wfseward wrote: Holy crap that was it!.

...

Well 4 days later, with a bunch of city driving with fairly aggressive throttle (which almost always triggered limp mode before) , no more failsafe mode. The new PCM ( ouch, I know), is still dialing in shifts and it gets smoother the more I drive

Holy fix out of nowhere! :woohoo: VERY well done. The update is hugely appreciated.

Now this all begs the question, what was going on with the cylinders/coils plugs, that would not throw a specific code, but affect power/torque enough to cause the P061b code and failsafe mode?

Exactly what I was wondering. :silly: Not trying to doubt your fix, but did you remove/replace anything else while you were doing the coils/plugs? Any loose air intake clamps found? Last year, I was thinking about this code being caused by air measurement faults, but now I'm not so sure.

I will say the first shop I took it to, an independant, did ask me about the condition of the coils/plugs, which was unknown to me . But, is it because these older ford engines have such a bad rep regarding plugs that mechanics shy away from actually pulling a few to check?

Maybe? It's even worse when you go to check a plug on one of these, and find that the thread repair insert came out with the plug. Now you get to reinstall a thread insert for free.

But honestly, unless I suspect a misfire, I wouldn't go digging into this ignition system either.

Isn't there a way to test coils under load condition in the shop? if not there should be.

There is! A secondary ignition probe with a scope is ideal for these engines. With the doghouse off, it's easy to brake torque the engine in the shop with the probe on a coil, and see exactly what the ignition system is doing. Makes spotting bad coils a breeze.

Thanks for weighing in on this! Was quite a headbanger for what seemed like forever. Very satisfying to finally zero in on the fix (ok more like a scattergun fix). The phrase "Don't be a parts changer" kept running thru my head, as I was changing all those parts. I did rationalize it as, "its a van with 190K that I don't know the maintenance history, might as well update these parts". This is my first Ford, and besides some of the quirks and weaknesses of the engine, this thing is built like a tank.

Regarding your comment on the fix:
"Exactly what I was wondering. :silly: Not trying to doubt your fix, but did you remove/replace anything else while you were doing the coils/plugs? Any loose air intake clamps found? Last year, I was thinking about this code being caused by air measurement faults, but now I'm not so sure."

Yes, I kept coming back to the air intake path, obsessing over the clamps and vacuum hoses (hose), and even quadruple checking the Throttle body mounting bolts. I can say I had the intake tubes/parts on and of easily 30 times. I even ordered a new factory air filter/MAF housing that came with new filter, clamp and MAF installed.

I did remember that when I was pulling the old coils, one of the connectors was not snapped in and wasn't sure it I had released it, or it was loose already. Wiring issue/ shorts/high resistance was the other thing that was mentioned as possible cause and I spent a lot of time checking/cleaning connectors and pins.

Good to know about the coil diagnostic with scope. As an electronics tech in previous life, I am very interested in learning more about deeper diagnostics with next level (for me) scanner and scope.

Loachuck wrote: Hello wfseward - have the coil packs and/or spark plugs been replaced?

Was this the fix for yours?

PDM wrote:

Loachuck wrote: Hello wfseward - have the coil packs and/or spark plugs been replaced?

Was this the fix for yours?

Yes it was the fix! Not sure if it was the coils, or the fact that 4 out if 8 plugs were loose/barely tight. The plugs looked ok other than that.

Thanks. That was actually for Loachuck. :lol:

I got a 2.4 litre gm forklift engine doing similar stuff my company keeps dealing with parts changers I told them ask forklift co if they have proprietary code reader that is NOT available to anyone that is not certified so unless forklift co oks it you do not have acces to diagnostic code reader for the ecms that is uded by forklift I imagine the s means small these are dual fuel ecms both fuel and propane can be used with the flick of a switch well my company justb spent over three grand on new engine and weiring harness and its still doing same thing cutting out when it gets hot ??????

I had the same issue on my 2007 e150 4.6 L 295,000 MI. In my case I did everything the same as everybody else I replaced a dozen sensors to know avail. As part of maintenance I drained my transmission fluid and that made a tremendous difference. Still did not solve the problem. So I flushed my transmission with 17 quarts of Ford mercon v. Yes I flushed it I removed one of the transmission cooler lines from the radiator so I also flushed the cooler. It runs amazing I know longer have the intermittent shutdowns. I believe my heart starting was because my torque converter stayed engaged constantly. I hope this works for everybody else. The p061b internal torque calculation I believe is the communication between the transmission and the pcm. Good luck everybody.

I had the same issue as many others. 2007 Ford e-150 4.6 L random shutdowns and difficult starts. I also replaced all the sensors that each code would suggest. I also had the po61b internal torque command issue. As part of maintenance I just happened to change my transmission fluid and the five quarts made an amazing difference. So then I flushed my transmission with 17 quarts of Ford mercon v it drove amazing. I no longer have the random shutdowns. I believe the hard starting was from the torque converter staying engaged the whole time. This worked for me along with the other 20 engine sensors which I did not mind replacing because I have 295,000 MI on the vehicle. It now runs unbelievable. I believe the previous garage put a universal transmission fluid in. You cannot do that with a Ford product. You must use Ford mercon v. Good luck everybody I hope this solves your issue.

Run a jumper wire from the underwood battery junction box fuse 27 to the pcm kapwr pin #45. That is the Keep Alive power supply constant hot. I saw an e150 in the salvage yard with this. So far this has worked for me. It bypasses the bad wire inthe harness

Run a jumper wire from the underwood battery junction box fuse 27 to the pcm kapwr pin #45. That is the Keep Alive power supply constant hot. I saw an e150 in the salvage yard with this. So far this has worked for me. It bypasses the bad wire inthe harness

 I was in a salvage yard and saw a 2007 Ford E150 with a jumper wire that ran. From the underhood battery Junction box, fuse number 27 to the PCM pin number 45 pe that is, the middle PCM connector  this wire was bypassing the KAPWR wire.Keep alive power wire. It is a constant hot wire use an 18 gauge wire.  with the 2 blue spice connectors that you crimp with a pair of pliers.