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2007 Ford e150 4.6L - Hard Starts, Random Shutdowns

  • Loachuck
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27 May 2018 14:49 #21060 by Loachuck
Just in from more testing.
Cleared MIL, warmed up and ran @ 2000 RPM for about 20 min.
Vacuum gauge on brake booster hose reads 22 psi steady at idle - throttle snap almost bottoms out, but recovers quickly to about 24 psi @ 2000rpm.

Live monitor of O2 sensors show proper switching on both S1's,
Bank1, Sensor 2 is all over the place but is in the .15 to .25 range
Bank2, Sensor 2 is pretty steady in the .75 to .80 range

That's all I have right now - no codes thrown on this session, but shut down a couple times (wrench symbol). In closely listening to the exhaust at the tailpipe, there is a pretty significant but fluctuating miss - no misfires detected from PCM

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27 May 2018 14:53 #21061 by Loachuck
One more observation, both long and short term trim values all average in the - 14% range

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27 May 2018 21:47 #21065 by Loachuck
So the issue does seem to point to figuring out why the PCM is seeing a rich condition (all negative trim values) and basically starving the engine for fuel? I can cause the engine to shut down almost every time (while driving, not sitting still) by doing a medium to hard throttle. Just thinking out loud.

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28 May 2018 12:16 #21070 by Loachuck
Well, have eliminated another possibility - did backpressure test on both O2 upstream outlets and detected virtually no backpressure at any rpm. BTW, no hard starts recently, but the truck has not been driven much.

So, the only clue I have right now is the constant negative fuel trim values.

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29 May 2018 15:22 #21086 by Loachuck
Today's update - about 3 shutdowns while driving about 4 miles, codes
P061B - P0172 - P0175

Have decided to try a new MAF as I am now wondering about the Hitachi I installed a year ago. Should have it tomorrow, will install and see what happens.

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29 May 2018 18:31 #21090 by Tyler

Loachuck wrote: Well, have eliminated another possibility - did backpressure test on both O2 upstream outlets and detected virtually no backpressure at any rpm. BTW, no hard starts recently, but the truck has not been driven much.

So, the only clue I have right now is the constant negative fuel trim values.


OK good to hear, that would have been expensive. :blink: I was actually referring to a different test with the vacuum gauge, but the backpressure testing you did works, too.



Today's update - about 3 shutdowns while driving about 4 miles, codes
P061B - P0172 - P0175

Have decided to try a new MAF as I am now wondering about the Hitachi I installed a year ago. Should have it tomorrow, will install and see what happens.


You might be onto something? Have a close look at the air filter and ducting while you're there. This goes back to laminar airflow over the sensor, and how skewing that can trick the sensor, causing fuel control issues.

Did you have a chance to look at the wiring by the EGR pipe?

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29 May 2018 20:15 #21093 by Loachuck
I did, the wiring harness is good & secure and about 2 inches away from the EGR tube - no sign of any chafing.

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29 May 2018 20:17 #21094 by Loachuck
Forgot to mention the hard start showed up as well this morning :-(

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29 May 2018 20:24 #21095 by Loachuck
"This goes back to laminar airflow over the sensor, and how skewing that can trick the sensor, causing fuel control issues"

So I should be looking for some sort of abnormal obstruction or protrusion in the area between the filter and the MAF?

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30 May 2018 14:37 #21110 by Loachuck
Well, what do you know. Started ripping air ducting apart to prep for new MAF and accidentally found a burned spot on the large brake booster hose! It had been routed over top of the egr exhaust tube, it was enclosed in a heat shield but had gotten through to the hose itself - not a huge opening but damaged enough so that you could pull air through by mouth.

This next part is really perplexing - had not checked PCV valve so removed and realized it was just an open tube! Everything I've looked at says this 4.6 should have a heated valve - the 5.4 shows just an open tube like I have. Am still trying to find any kind of wire to plug in and there just is none. Will continue to look while I get a good vac hose back in place.

I will now hold off before I install the new MAF to see what happens.

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30 May 2018 18:39 #21115 by Loachuck
Allright, replaced brake booster vac hose and definitely made a noticeable difference, short term trim values much better, in the -5% to +5% range - long term values still high. Still had a few P061 shutdowns in about 12 miles.

Now, let's get to the real kick in the ass. Not only is my PCV valve NOT heated (as it should have been - even have the 5A fuse), the guts of the valve had, I guess, dropped out into the valve train area so there was NOTHING but an open, unrestricted source of "extra" air volume into the intake stream, after the MAF.

I think we may have found the problem(s)! Will find out tomorrow. It all makes sense now, thinking back to when the truck was running fine then BAM, all of a sudden this nightmare appeared out of nowhere. I do believe several other lesser issues have been corrected through this process, so I'm not going to beat myself up too bad over this.

EVERYBODY READING THIS - CHECK THE BASICS, EVEN THE SMALLEST DETAILS!

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30 May 2018 19:03 #21116 by Tyler
Hey, progress! :woohoo: Definitely let us know what you find tomorrow, when you (I'm guessing?) replace the heated PCV assembly.

I really hate to be a naysayer here. :lol: But I'm still having trouble linking the vacuum leaks from the PCV and the brake booster hose and your symptoms. Usually vacuum leaks cause positive trims on these engines, not negative. And I don't see why either one would cause hard starting. What are your trims like now after you replaced the brake booster hose?

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31 May 2018 16:26 #21137 by Loachuck
Glad I didn't get my hopes up too much, but happy to have corrected the vac hose and PCV valve issue. As you mentioned, and according to my limited understanding of the fuel trims they should have been positive values. Fired up after the new PCV valve and took it for about a 10 mile spin - horrible, and worse than before. Short term fuel trims in the -15 to -20 range at medium throttle, several shutdowns, same P061b plus some others that were pending. It was so bad I went back to my old PCM, fired up and still very high negative numbers on the short term trim. Reasonable at idle but in the -20 to -25 range at higher rpms. One item I keep noticing is the voltage value on HO2S bank 1, sensor 2 drops waaay low at the higher rpms, in the .15v to .20v range while the bank 2 sensor 2 pretty much stays in the .80v range - hmmmm.

So, that's all I have right now. I have not installed the new MAF yet because after I open the package, it's mine. Don't know where to go from here.

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31 May 2018 19:24 #21142 by Loachuck
Did some electrical double checking on the MAF and according to the ref values in PC ED, voltage at idle should be .78 volt. This one hovers around .62, live data shows up/down responses as expected, except all lower values than ref. WOT sitting still jumps it up to around 2.75v

Took a test drive w/old PCM - ran better and observed much better short term trims, -10 to +5. Did have one shutdown (P061B) - almost always occurs at exactly the same place, light throttle around 40 mph into a slight incline - I can almost predict it's happened so many times.

So, that's it. All I have is the MAF lower than spec voltage and the HO2SB1, S2 that drops very low on higher rpms - observed as low as .08v, usually down to around about .15v. Equalizes to the other one (about .80v) at idle. Seems odd. Still have to decide if I want to go ahead & try the new MAF. So far, I'm not convinced enough to try another $100 part. Thanks.

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02 Jun 2018 15:25 #21179 by Loachuck
6/1/18 - Replaced air filter, installed new MAF. Started right up, idle perfectly for 20 min took a test drive about 7 miles, ran perfect but O2 sensors stayed offline and threw the P2196, P2198 and of course, 1 shutdown resulting in P061b. Switched over to newer PCM with same results - was never able to get the O2s going, so I just shut it down for the night thinking the PCM just did not like the Delphi MAF.

6/2/18 - Cleaned and installed older Hitachi MAF, left newer PCM in. Fired right up, monitored O2 Sensors and they kicked in properly. Drove about 40 miles - ran very well with a few P061b shutdowns (of course), monitored short term trim values - they were excellent, in the -5 to +5 average. However, as I got back close to home, the O2 sensors stuck rich again, so now I'm left with the usual P061b, plus P2196 & P2198.

As much as I hate to think of it, (especially since it's a crap shoot where you spend a lot of $$$ with no guarantees) I'm wondering if a programming session at the Ford dealership might be necessary.

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03 Jun 2018 11:00 #21188 by Tyler

Loachuck wrote: 6/2/18 - Cleaned and installed older Hitachi MAF, left newer PCM in. Fired right up, monitored O2 Sensors and they kicked in properly. Drove about 40 miles - ran very well with a few P061b shutdowns (of course), monitored short term trim values - they were excellent, in the -5 to +5 average. However, as I got back close to home, the O2 sensors stuck rich again, so now I'm left with the usual P061b, plus P2196 & P2198.


Are you able to save scan data from your test drives? I'd love to look at it if possible. Mostly looking for anything that may have changed around the same time that the trims started taking a nose dive (which they would be if the O2's were stuck rich.

I wonder if you're encountering a false rich condition, causing the PCM to suck all the fuel away. Still not sure how the P061B ties in. :unsure:

The other thing that occurs to me is a sticking purge valve, or Vapor Management Valve in Ford-ese. They can stick open and cause rich conditions, and also allow unmetered air in depending on the charcoal canister content. Next chance you get, try unplugging the VMV and go for another drive. Fingers crossed. :cheer:

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03 Jun 2018 13:01 #21193 by Loachuck
I will get what FF data there is and post.

Also, just came across the purge valve issue relating to the P061b discussion, so I will pursue that as well. Thanks

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