Help us help you. By posting the year, make, model and engine near the beginning of your help request, followed by the symptoms (no start, high idle, misfire etc.) Along with any prevalent Diagnostic Trouble Codes, aka DTCs, other forum members will be able to help you get to a solution more quickly and easily!

Absolute Throttle position - 2005 Ford Escape

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6 years 4 days ago #19249 by BaguioRic
HI Everyone - Newbie here - just a weekend DIY. I'm retired living in the Philippines - no qualified mechanics or good garage around so it is DIY and YouTube. Lots of ScannerDanner and Schrodingers Box.

I have a scanner program on my laptop - OBDwiz - works ok but low end.

I have a 2005 Ford Escape, V6, 3L, SUV, gas - about 50,000 miles.

No engine codes.

It is skipping not really drivable but does not stall. Sometimes it would run better under load, other times it would choke out. Poor gas mileage. I replaced the PVC valve and line. The valve was over due for replacement and the line had collapsed. I thought that repaired it but it did not. Ran good for couple days then symptoms came back. I disconnect the battery when I replaced it so cleared memory.

STFT - B 1& B2 - at idle - +10 to 15
LTFT - B1 & B2 - at idle - holding 0 The battery has been disconnected so history lost. I let it run about 15 minutes running the throttle up and down, then tested. (On an earlier reading STFT went as high as 25, LTFT at 0)

On rev STFTs drop to 0, LTFTs move up + 2

My scanner will not do do cylinder misfire

Voltage on MAF and TPS good. MAF is clean. O2 sensors appear on scanner to be working. Looked and looked for vacuum leak but haven't found.

My Question: The scan tool shows Absolute throttle position at 18 % - idle, rev, wide open - never moves - that doesn't seem right. Is this something to test - have not been able to find any information on this PID.

Next step is pull the intake manifold and test the plugs, coil, compression - everything is buried on this engine. I'd rather not so any suggestions would be Greatly appreciated.

Thank you all

BaguioRic

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6 years 4 days ago #19253 by Tyler
Your Absolute Throttle Position PID behavior is definitely abormal. :blink: Does Relative Throttle Position ever change? No offense to your scanner, but that might be a software bug. If you're interested, you should try FORScan. ;) It's an excellent program that'll give you access to the Enhanced OEM data instead of just Global. Several other members here use it if you have questions.

Do you have access to Mode $06 data? If there's a misfire, then Mode $06 will likely be storing counts, which can give you some good direction to go in. Not sure if the '05 was using CAN yet or not. :unsure: Test ID $53 if not, $83 if it is.

Would you also mind rechecking fuel trims at 2500 RPM, in addition to idle? That'll give us a better idea of what's going on with the fuel control. Thanks! :cheer:
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6 years 3 days ago #19271 by BaguioRic
Thanks for getting back to me. I will do all the above and post the findings. I'll also take a look at ForScan. LOL See if it is in the budget.

Thanks again
BaguioRic

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6 years 3 days ago - 6 years 3 days ago #19274 by BaguioRic
Hi: I have gathered more data. I downloaded the ForScan - wow - it was free, I didn't realize that. I have an ODBLink SX and I was able to connect. Very cool. Thank you.

Forgot to mention I also replaced the fuel filter, it was over due. Yea, it's pointed the right way. LOL

P0231
P1000

Engine seems to be running smoother.

Closed Loop
No faults on fuel injectors
I could not find a PID for misfire
TP voltage acted correctly
Temp 186 F
RPM 800 - idle - pretty smooth
MAF .49 lb/min

LTFT Bk1 .39+ STFT Bk1 10 to 14
LTFT Bk2 0 STFT Bk2 14 to 19

RPM 2500
MAF 1.44 lb/min
LTFT Bk1 6 STFT Bk1 .5 to -2
LTFT Bk2 6 STFT Bk2 .5 to -2

I let the car set an hour.
Closed loop

idle
LTFF Bk 1 0 STFT 1 26
LTFT Bk 2 0 STFT 2 32

REV to 2800
LTFF Bk 1 6 STFT 1 -3
LTFT Bk 2 8 STFT 2 -5

My other software lists some Mod 6 but not $53 or $83
No misfire registered in the Mod 6
There is a fail for $11 TID $04 and $21 TID $04 O2 sensors

As per ScannerDanner I sprayed around with some water looking for a vacuum leak but no reaction.

Doesn't look like a vacuum but then again I've no idea what it does look like. It seems inconsistent.

Was not able to get any other information on throttle position. I didn't find a PID in ForScan that showed movement. My other software still say 18% and there is only the one PID.

Again thanks for any suggestions you might have.

BaguioRic
Last edit: 6 years 3 days ago by BaguioRic.

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6 years 2 days ago #19276 by Tyler
No problem! :cheer: I'm a big fan of ForScan, excellent software overall. Still no throttle PID available? :huh: TP(V) is what I usually look for. I'll have a look at mine later and see what ForScan calls it.

Does the P0231 come back consistently, or was that a one time code? Obviously the fuel pump is working, but it's still worth tracking down if the code keeps coming back.

Thank you for looking into the fuel trims, too. Those numbers definitely indicate a vacuum leak of some kind. :blink: Which PCV hose did you replace, exactly? If needed, you can start plugging off vacuum ports at the back of the intake to eliminate potential leaks. There should be three - one for the brake booster, another for PCV, and another for misc vacuum sources. Recheck the trims and see if eliminating one produces a significant change. ;)

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6 years 2 days ago - 6 years 2 days ago #19291 by BaguioRic
Thank you again. I'll follow up as you suggest.

TP V looks ok both on the scanner and with back prob. The throttle move easily manually. I'm thinking, as you suggested, the ODBwiz software is giving a bad reading for the absolute throttle position.

The ForScan shows the error code, but the ODBwiz does not. As I said I changed the fuel filter, it was due. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge.

Thanks again
Last edit: 6 years 2 days ago by BaguioRic.

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6 years 2 days ago - 6 years 2 days ago #19292 by BaguioRic
The PVC is buried deep under the throttle body between the intake manifolds. There is a long vacuum line that goes from that up to the top of the manifold near the fire wall, as you said. I replaced that and the valve. You cannot see or reach the valve. I was planning to check them again today. I checked it with carburetor cleaner after I installed it and again yesterday with water - no reaction either time.

ODBwiz told me how to download some Ford misfire PIDs for the OBCwiz software, I'll try those today also.

Thanks again.
Last edit: 6 years 2 days ago by BaguioRic.

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6 years 1 day ago #19351 by BaguioRic
I want to thank you again for your time and thoughts on this. I'm really not getting a handle on it. Nothing seems broken, all the test results are good, but it is still running STFT 15 to 25 all the time.

Following up: I rechecked the PVC valve I installed and the line, both seem ok. I also tried simply blowing on the PVC line and it didn't seem to leak, air flowed one way not the other.

I pulled the break booster and closed it off with my finger. After the engine settled down still running STFT 15 to 25. Did the same with the miscellaneous connection, same result - STFT 15 to 25. I tried to pull off the PVC but engine immediately died.

Just setting at idle and revving the engine it sounds good.

I ran the PIDs for misfire from my ODBwiz software - none registered.

Here is a list of all the codes I see from ForScan, OBDwiz software show none:
ODBII condes - none
IC codes:
B1352
B1328
P0705
PCM codes
P0231
P1000
RCM codes
B1881

I looked them up. Other than the P0231 nothing looked too significant. If there was a fuel problem I think it would show as load/RPM increased. That wasn't the problem when I drove it last. I had to keep the RPMs up for it to run. That made me think vacuum but I cannot find a vacuum leak.

I have not driven the car for several days. I am worried about damaging the catalytic.

Questions:
1 - could this be just that the computer memory was cleared and I need to repopulate it?
2 - dirty fuel injectors, restricted flow? Could back pressure cause the P0231?
3 - compression - leaky gasket?

I just got a compression tester - had to order it online. (There is no where here to buy tools, parts are limited and VERY expensive.) I can pull the intake manifold. Once that is off I can look at the plugs and coils, and test compression. (no misfire codes registered thought) I don't want to get into part swapping, I really want to know what is wrong before I tear into the engine. Getting new seals for the intake manifold may be a problem.

Again any suggestion would be a big help. I'm stuck.
Thanks
Rick

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6 years 1 day ago #19361 by BaguioRic
Maybe I got it: While I was replacing the PVC valve, I pulled off the throttle body. Wedged down on the frame I saw what looked like a gasket. I fished it out but didn't recognize it. I put it in my tool box. Today I was looking at an EGR valve cleaning YouTube and saw the mystery part. It is the gasket to the EGR valve. I have never removed the EGR. I bought the car new and the only people that worked on it where the dealership mechanics while it was under warranty. No idea why they would pull off the EGR, but their leaving off a part or two is no surprise at all. That is why I DIY.

I have sprayed the EGR several times with carb cleaner but never got a reaction.

I cleaned and replaced the gasket, put back on the EGR.
At idle:
STFT BK1 now -6 to -12% LTFT 0
STFT Bk2 now -5 to - 9% LTFT - .35

I ran it a idle for about 20 minutes. I expected the STFT to pull down the LTFT but they didn't really. BK1 LTFL fluctuating more (0 to 3%) than BK2 which is holding pretty steady at - .35

Big change from STFTs of +25%. I am going to drive the car then put it on the scanner again. It is sounding a little rough but maybe the trims need to reset.

Thanks again, I hope this is the fix.
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5 years 11 months ago #19412 by Tyler
I think you found it! :woohoo: Those trims are MUCH better. I wonder why it never showed with carb cleaner? :huh:

Whatever, way to keep your eyes open. B) Your trims may improve a bit after the BARO reading updates. Do a couple WOT/heavy throttle runs to get it to refresh. The only time I ever pull that gasket is if the EGR valve failed (usually due to plugged cats) or if I'm removing the intake to do plugs/coils/valve cover gaskets.

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5 years 11 months ago #19419 by BaguioRic
Thanks Tyler: I did a couple of test drives, ran the throttle up and down. It ran well for a while. Now the car is running very rough again. I think the positive FTs masked another problem.

I will get back on it with the analyzer and see what it says.

Thanks again for you help. I will update what I find.

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5 years 11 months ago #19546 by BaguioRic
Hi Tyler, everyone: Car still not running well, very rough, not drivable.

There was a vacuum leak that put the FTs positive, that is fixed now. The FTs are now LTFT 1&2 at 0, STFT 1&2 around -2. That seems good but . . . .

Originally I had a question about the throttle position. ForScan and ODBWiz analyzers both show the throttle position at 18%. When I start the car - cold - idle - 700 RPM - TP is 18%. When it warms up, 700 RPM - TP is 18%. Warm at 1500 RPM TP moves to 19%. At 2000 RPM it is 19.5%. At 2500 it is 21%.

I've Googled and bought a couple different Escape aftermarket books but I have not been able to find out what range the throttle should be moving through. Only moving 3 degrees does not seem right.

STFT at 700 RPM are around -3, at 1500 RPM around -1.5, at 2500 RPM around 0
LTFT at 700 are 0, at 1500 they are pulling down, at 2500 around -3.

Just before I shut the engine off - been running 15 minutes +, at idle, LTFT were 0, but STFT were -12, and -8.

Negative trims seem consistent with the throttle registering as too far open, though I think physically it is moving correctly. I tested the throttle position sensor. Signal from PCM is 5V, ground is good, V at idle is .9, as throttle opens V increases smoothly to WOT 5 V. MAP is clean, and V reads correctly.

The only seemly significant code P0231. (I listed a complete set of codes ForScan shows earlier.)

Setting in the garage and running it, the engine sounds fine. Under load (driving) it starts skipping and seems to get worse as it warms up. I looked at a bunch of PIDs for both banks and there is nothing that stands out between the two banks. ForScan shows fuel tank pressure at 4.2KPa Fuel injector pulse length same on both banks as engine revs. The O2 sensors appear to be working normally.

No idea what direction to go with this. Could it be back pressure from the Cat, blockage?

Thanks for any suggestions.

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5 years 11 months ago #19593 by Ben
Rpms aren't relative to tp% if it's going from .9 to 5v it's working. When looking at tp% do it with key on engine off and move from 0 throttle to wide open throttle and see if your tp% goes from under 20% to over 90% . Even if it doesn't I don't suspect that being the issues if your voltage is correct (and what you listed says it is) . It could be a plugged cat what are your maf readings at idle and again at wide open throttle under load(1st and 2nd gear accel)

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5 years 11 months ago #19599 by BaguioRic
I'll test and post results.
Also - I disconnected the fuel line, I thought I could get a PID reading fuel rail pressure thinking it should be 0 if sensor was good. No PID, no reading.
While running I disconnect the IAC, I expected car to die, but it continued to run at idle then stalled when I have it throttle. While running I sprayed all over with Carb cleaner but no reaction.
Again thank you for the time and suggestions.

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5 years 11 months ago #19622 by BaguioRic
Hi: MAF test - idle 3.7 g/sec, wot 1st gear 100 g/sec, 2nd gear popped over 100 then settled back to 62 g/sec. This was up a step hill, but due to traffic conditions a short time in wot. I tried to Google this but found no references, what would normal be?

Again the O2 sensors bk 1 sensor 1, bank 2 sensor 1 look normal. V fluctuating between .2 to .8 V. I have no pids for sensors 2 on either scanner or CAT temperature.

OBDWiz has a pid for cat back pressure - reads 0, I don't know if it is accurate.

I noticed that when car was cold it ran fine. (Seems that would eliminate a cat problem.) When it went into closed loop, I'm assuming here, after about 10 minutes driving, it started skipping. After the wot test skipping was much worse, car almost stalled. Then it cleared somewhat. All total drove about 7 miles. I stopped 4 times and shut off engine then started again to see if it would generate any codes. I've started the car 3 or 4 more times, but no codes.

Driving back normal driving STFT was -2 +/- LTFT 0 both banks.

No codes but there is a fail notice manufacturer TID $56 28875 max 3000 - fail I Googled this and it appears to be a misfire code. My scanners show no misfires.

Again thanks for any input or suggestions. I've really run out of ideas. I'm thinking to try and get intake seals, then pull the manifold so I can get to the fuel injectors and plugs. I think there is a fuel rail pressure sensor, it must be under the intake manifold, I cant find it. The car only has about 50K miles on it, maintenance calls for new plugs at 100K. Plugs, coils, wires, fuel injectors should all be good. Nothing the scanners show indicates a bank specific problem. I have no problem doing the wrenching, but I'm getting nowhere with diagnosing this.
One last thought - the fuel here, Philippines, is not good. This could be something from the long term use of poorly refined gas.
Any suggestions would be great. Thanks all.

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5 years 11 months ago #19625 by Ben
Your a little low on your wide open throttle maf do you have a load pod? Does it reach 100%

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5 years 11 months ago #19626 by Ben
Also do you have map on this engine ?

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5 years 11 months ago #19627 by Ben
You said 02s look normal did they stay full rich during your wide open throttle?

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5 years 11 months ago #20145 by BaguioRic
In case anyone is following this I'd like to close the topic as I think I found the problem. To conclude, I ordered a fuel pressure test kit from China, took 2 weeks to get it. Found nothing wrong with the fuel pressure or bleed down tests. I then pulled off the upper intake manifold. I tested the coils which appear ok. I decided to replace the plugs as they where about due and I was in that deep anyway. (FYI in case anyone else in the Philippines is replacing parts: On Amazon you can get plugs, coils, and intake seals for $54. Here plugs are $12 each, intake seals are $20 each. If you can, plan ahead and order parts from the US.)

In replacing the plugs I found that a plug I had replaced about 2 years ago was the wrong plug for the car. At the time it was the only plug I could get locally and the parts place told me it was compatible, turns out it is not. I replaced all the plugs with new and I think correct plugs. The car is running much better. There is still an occasional skip I'm hoping will clear as the computer relearns its settings. LTFT now at zero, both banks, and STFTs are around -5. O2 sensors appear to be working correctly.

My thought is the odd plug was failing under load, but at idle it was able to keep up. No error codes every showed, and analyzer didn't show skips. No doubt a better mechanic would have caught this sooner. I don't know where else I should have looked to get an indication of what the problem was. If anyone has a suggestion how I could have seen this quicker I would appreciate hearing it. I'm still DIY and trying to learn.

Thanks all for the suggestions and help.

Rick

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2 years 5 months ago - 2 years 5 months ago #52055 by michael.packer
Hey I found this thread while researching a very similar problem with my 05' Ford escape 3.0l V6 Limited. I had basically the exact same issues as you're describing. Poor throttle response. No power. Rpms incapable of exceeding 3000. Feeling sluggish as if the throttle was not opening properly. I do not have the ability to hook a computer up to do diagnostics so I had to rely on a handheld scanner. Clearing codes and pulling them one by one in ACC setting and while idle and when revving. All to get a bunch of codes that had me running in circles chasing sensor codes. Only to test them and find everything is fine... I then stumbled on some research suggesting I may have a problem with my catalytic converter and found a YouTube video that described the exact same circumstances we seem to be experiencing. So i ended up climbing under my Escape and unbolted the catalytic converter from the flex pipe. And moved it aside, securing the muffler and catalytic converters to the subframe temporarily. I fired up the truck and it immediately sounded amazing!! Would no longer stall or struggle to reach 3000 rpm which was causing alot of problems for the transmission sensors to properly shift or shift harder than they should. The truck now hits the 4.2k rev limiter as it should!! I took it for a test drive and the difference is phenomenal!! So basically I've found the root cause of my issues and will be making repairs to the back half of my exhaust system. It cost me nothing to diagnose this problem and was very easy to do. Took me a couple car ramps and about 10 mins to get the catalytic removed.. I hope you can give this a try and find similar success and can stop chasing codes as well!!! Good luck!!!

www.google.com/search?q=2005+ford+escape...ome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#

Edit: here is a screenshot of the codes I was getting while testing with the handheld scanner... 
Last edit: 2 years 5 months ago by michael.packer. Reason: Adding info.
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