Absolute Throttle position - 2005 Ford Escape
I have a scanner program on my laptop - OBDwiz - works ok but low end.
I have a 2005 Ford Escape, V6, 3L, SUV, gas - about 50,000 miles.
No engine codes.
It is skipping not really drivable but does not stall. Sometimes it would run better under load, other times it would choke out. Poor gas mileage. I replaced the PVC valve and line. The valve was over due for replacement and the line had collapsed. I thought that repaired it but it did not. Ran good for couple days then symptoms came back. I disconnect the battery when I replaced it so cleared memory.
STFT - B 1& B2 - at idle - +10 to 15
LTFT - B1 & B2 - at idle - holding 0 The battery has been disconnected so history lost. I let it run about 15 minutes running the throttle up and down, then tested. (On an earlier reading STFT went as high as 25, LTFT at 0)
On rev STFTs drop to 0, LTFTs move up + 2
My scanner will not do do cylinder misfire
Voltage on MAF and TPS good. MAF is clean. O2 sensors appear on scanner to be working. Looked and looked for vacuum leak but haven't found.
My Question: The scan tool shows Absolute throttle position at 18 % - idle, rev, wide open - never moves - that doesn't seem right. Is this something to test - have not been able to find any information on this PID.
Next step is pull the intake manifold and test the plugs, coil, compression - everything is buried on this engine. I'd rather not so any suggestions would be Greatly appreciated.
Thank you all
BaguioRic
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Do you have access to Mode $06 data? If there's a misfire, then Mode $06 will likely be storing counts, which can give you some good direction to go in. Not sure if the '05 was using CAN yet or not. Test ID $53 if not, $83 if it is.
Would you also mind rechecking fuel trims at 2500 RPM, in addition to idle? That'll give us a better idea of what's going on with the fuel control. Thanks!
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Thanks again
BaguioRic
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Forgot to mention I also replaced the fuel filter, it was over due. Yea, it's pointed the right way. LOL
P0231
P1000
Engine seems to be running smoother.
Closed Loop
No faults on fuel injectors
I could not find a PID for misfire
TP voltage acted correctly
Temp 186 F
RPM 800 - idle - pretty smooth
MAF .49 lb/min
LTFT Bk1 .39+ STFT Bk1 10 to 14
LTFT Bk2 0 STFT Bk2 14 to 19
RPM 2500
MAF 1.44 lb/min
LTFT Bk1 6 STFT Bk1 .5 to -2
LTFT Bk2 6 STFT Bk2 .5 to -2
I let the car set an hour.
Closed loop
idle
LTFF Bk 1 0 STFT 1 26
LTFT Bk 2 0 STFT 2 32
REV to 2800
LTFF Bk 1 6 STFT 1 -3
LTFT Bk 2 8 STFT 2 -5
My other software lists some Mod 6 but not $53 or $83
No misfire registered in the Mod 6
There is a fail for $11 TID $04 and $21 TID $04 O2 sensors
As per ScannerDanner I sprayed around with some water looking for a vacuum leak but no reaction.
Doesn't look like a vacuum but then again I've no idea what it does look like. It seems inconsistent.
Was not able to get any other information on throttle position. I didn't find a PID in ForScan that showed movement. My other software still say 18% and there is only the one PID.
Again thanks for any suggestions you might have.
BaguioRic
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Does the P0231 come back consistently, or was that a one time code? Obviously the fuel pump is working, but it's still worth tracking down if the code keeps coming back.
Thank you for looking into the fuel trims, too. Those numbers definitely indicate a vacuum leak of some kind. :blink: Which PCV hose did you replace, exactly? If needed, you can start plugging off vacuum ports at the back of the intake to eliminate potential leaks. There should be three - one for the brake booster, another for PCV, and another for misc vacuum sources. Recheck the trims and see if eliminating one produces a significant change.
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TP V looks ok both on the scanner and with back prob. The throttle move easily manually. I'm thinking, as you suggested, the ODBwiz software is giving a bad reading for the absolute throttle position.
The ForScan shows the error code, but the ODBwiz does not. As I said I changed the fuel filter, it was due. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge.
Thanks again
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ODBwiz told me how to download some Ford misfire PIDs for the OBCwiz software, I'll try those today also.
Thanks again.
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Following up: I rechecked the PVC valve I installed and the line, both seem ok. I also tried simply blowing on the PVC line and it didn't seem to leak, air flowed one way not the other.
I pulled the break booster and closed it off with my finger. After the engine settled down still running STFT 15 to 25. Did the same with the miscellaneous connection, same result - STFT 15 to 25. I tried to pull off the PVC but engine immediately died.
Just setting at idle and revving the engine it sounds good.
I ran the PIDs for misfire from my ODBwiz software - none registered.
Here is a list of all the codes I see from ForScan, OBDwiz software show none:
ODBII condes - none
IC codes:
B1352
B1328
P0705
PCM codes
P0231
P1000
RCM codes
B1881
I looked them up. Other than the P0231 nothing looked too significant. If there was a fuel problem I think it would show as load/RPM increased. That wasn't the problem when I drove it last. I had to keep the RPMs up for it to run. That made me think vacuum but I cannot find a vacuum leak.
I have not driven the car for several days. I am worried about damaging the catalytic.
Questions:
1 - could this be just that the computer memory was cleared and I need to repopulate it?
2 - dirty fuel injectors, restricted flow? Could back pressure cause the P0231?
3 - compression - leaky gasket?
I just got a compression tester - had to order it online. (There is no where here to buy tools, parts are limited and VERY expensive.) I can pull the intake manifold. Once that is off I can look at the plugs and coils, and test compression. (no misfire codes registered thought) I don't want to get into part swapping, I really want to know what is wrong before I tear into the engine. Getting new seals for the intake manifold may be a problem.
Again any suggestion would be a big help. I'm stuck.
Thanks
Rick
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I have sprayed the EGR several times with carb cleaner but never got a reaction.
I cleaned and replaced the gasket, put back on the EGR.
At idle:
STFT BK1 now -6 to -12% LTFT 0
STFT Bk2 now -5 to - 9% LTFT - .35
I ran it a idle for about 20 minutes. I expected the STFT to pull down the LTFT but they didn't really. BK1 LTFL fluctuating more (0 to 3%) than BK2 which is holding pretty steady at - .35
Big change from STFTs of +25%. I am going to drive the car then put it on the scanner again. It is sounding a little rough but maybe the trims need to reset.
Thanks again, I hope this is the fix.
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Whatever, way to keep your eyes open. Your trims may improve a bit after the BARO reading updates. Do a couple WOT/heavy throttle runs to get it to refresh. The only time I ever pull that gasket is if the EGR valve failed (usually due to plugged cats) or if I'm removing the intake to do plugs/coils/valve cover gaskets.
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I will get back on it with the analyzer and see what it says.
Thanks again for you help. I will update what I find.
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There was a vacuum leak that put the FTs positive, that is fixed now. The FTs are now LTFT 1&2 at 0, STFT 1&2 around -2. That seems good but . . . .
Originally I had a question about the throttle position. ForScan and ODBWiz analyzers both show the throttle position at 18%. When I start the car - cold - idle - 700 RPM - TP is 18%. When it warms up, 700 RPM - TP is 18%. Warm at 1500 RPM TP moves to 19%. At 2000 RPM it is 19.5%. At 2500 it is 21%.
I've Googled and bought a couple different Escape aftermarket books but I have not been able to find out what range the throttle should be moving through. Only moving 3 degrees does not seem right.
STFT at 700 RPM are around -3, at 1500 RPM around -1.5, at 2500 RPM around 0
LTFT at 700 are 0, at 1500 they are pulling down, at 2500 around -3.
Just before I shut the engine off - been running 15 minutes +, at idle, LTFT were 0, but STFT were -12, and -8.
Negative trims seem consistent with the throttle registering as too far open, though I think physically it is moving correctly. I tested the throttle position sensor. Signal from PCM is 5V, ground is good, V at idle is .9, as throttle opens V increases smoothly to WOT 5 V. MAP is clean, and V reads correctly.
The only seemly significant code P0231. (I listed a complete set of codes ForScan shows earlier.)
Setting in the garage and running it, the engine sounds fine. Under load (driving) it starts skipping and seems to get worse as it warms up. I looked at a bunch of PIDs for both banks and there is nothing that stands out between the two banks. ForScan shows fuel tank pressure at 4.2KPa Fuel injector pulse length same on both banks as engine revs. The O2 sensors appear to be working normally.
No idea what direction to go with this. Could it be back pressure from the Cat, blockage?
Thanks for any suggestions.
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Also - I disconnected the fuel line, I thought I could get a PID reading fuel rail pressure thinking it should be 0 if sensor was good. No PID, no reading.
While running I disconnect the IAC, I expected car to die, but it continued to run at idle then stalled when I have it throttle. While running I sprayed all over with Carb cleaner but no reaction.
Again thank you for the time and suggestions.
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Again the O2 sensors bk 1 sensor 1, bank 2 sensor 1 look normal. V fluctuating between .2 to .8 V. I have no pids for sensors 2 on either scanner or CAT temperature.
OBDWiz has a pid for cat back pressure - reads 0, I don't know if it is accurate.
I noticed that when car was cold it ran fine. (Seems that would eliminate a cat problem.) When it went into closed loop, I'm assuming here, after about 10 minutes driving, it started skipping. After the wot test skipping was much worse, car almost stalled. Then it cleared somewhat. All total drove about 7 miles. I stopped 4 times and shut off engine then started again to see if it would generate any codes. I've started the car 3 or 4 more times, but no codes.
Driving back normal driving STFT was -2 +/- LTFT 0 both banks.
No codes but there is a fail notice manufacturer TID $56 28875 max 3000 - fail I Googled this and it appears to be a misfire code. My scanners show no misfires.
Again thanks for any input or suggestions. I've really run out of ideas. I'm thinking to try and get intake seals, then pull the manifold so I can get to the fuel injectors and plugs. I think there is a fuel rail pressure sensor, it must be under the intake manifold, I cant find it. The car only has about 50K miles on it, maintenance calls for new plugs at 100K. Plugs, coils, wires, fuel injectors should all be good. Nothing the scanners show indicates a bank specific problem. I have no problem doing the wrenching, but I'm getting nowhere with diagnosing this.
One last thought - the fuel here, Philippines, is not good. This could be something from the long term use of poorly refined gas.
Any suggestions would be great. Thanks all.
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In replacing the plugs I found that a plug I had replaced about 2 years ago was the wrong plug for the car. At the time it was the only plug I could get locally and the parts place told me it was compatible, turns out it is not. I replaced all the plugs with new and I think correct plugs. The car is running much better. There is still an occasional skip I'm hoping will clear as the computer relearns its settings. LTFT now at zero, both banks, and STFTs are around -5. O2 sensors appear to be working correctly.
My thought is the odd plug was failing under load, but at idle it was able to keep up. No error codes every showed, and analyzer didn't show skips. No doubt a better mechanic would have caught this sooner. I don't know where else I should have looked to get an indication of what the problem was. If anyone has a suggestion how I could have seen this quicker I would appreciate hearing it. I'm still DIY and trying to learn.
Thanks all for the suggestions and help.
Rick
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- michael.packer
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www.google.com/search?q=2005+ford+escape...ome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#
Edit: here is a screenshot of the codes I was getting while testing with the handheld scanner...
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