Proud New Owner of a Vantage Ultra

More
3 years 10 months ago #40212 by AJeep18
I recently purchased a Vantage Ultra used off eBay. I was looking for input on accessories. Right now my list includes high and low amp current probes, fuse buddy style current loops, and a COP inductive pickup. Is there anything else that is fairly economical that would be a good investment? Will this machine support a pressure transducer and if so has anyone done a DIY? Also once I get it I would like to begin familiarizing myself with it and thought I could maybe practice some tests on the cars I have access too (Honda Accord, Jeep Cherokee, Dodge Charger) are there any tests that I could practice that would be beneficial to me? Sorry for all the questions just looking to learn :).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 10 months ago #40213 by Chad
Congratulations! That's a great tool. B) I have one and I love it. For a pressure transducer, A Fluke PV350 is a good match. They cost about $600, new. You can get a used one off Ebay for about $300. I bought one, used, about 8-10 years ago. It still serves me, well. :)

As for practice, check out the "Guided Component Tests". You can play in there for hours. Have fun!

"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."

I have learned more by being wrong, than I have by being right. :-)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 10 months ago #40215 by Matt T
Personally I'd skip the large amp clamp. Guys seem to be using the smaller one successfully for relative compression on gas engines which is about the largest current you'll need to 'scope. The fuse buddies I've got the ones with DMM leads rather than the loops. Opens up other testing options besides just current.

If you're interested in DIY check out the older threads in Lab scope discussion. Lots of good stuff there on pressure transducers and such. Might also be some in the broader Diagnostic tools and techniques. And if you're DIYing order up a decent selection of banana plugs and sockets. Life is so much easier when everything is on banana plugs.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Noah, Chad

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 10 months ago #40220 by Chad

Matt T wrote: Personally I'd skip the large amp clamp. Guys seem to be using the smaller one successfully for relative compression on gas engines which is about the largest current you'll need to 'scope.


I agree. :)

"Knowledge is a weapon. Arm yourself, well, before going to do battle."
"Understanding a question is half an answer."

I have learned more by being wrong, than I have by being right. :-)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 10 months ago #40221 by AJeep18
That is why I asked, thanks guys :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 10 months ago #40251 by Tyler
I second the low amp probe first. Much more versatile overall. I'd only get the high amp probe if you find yourself doing relative compression regularly. I've been using a PV350 for about six years now, and it's worked well. Significantly cheaper than a WPS500X.

Definitely check out this thread if you're interested in secondary ignition probes:

www.scannerdanner.com/forum/lab-scope-di...need-to-buy-one.html

After having made my own probes, I'll never buy another. ;)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 10 months ago #40271 by AJeep18

Tyler wrote: I second the low amp probe first. Much more versatile overall. I'd only get the high amp probe if you find yourself doing relative compression regularly. I've been using a PV350 for about six years now, and it's worked well. Significantly cheaper than a WPS500X.

Definitely check out this thread if you're interested in secondary ignition probes:

www.scannerdanner.com/forum/lab-scope-di...need-to-buy-one.html

After having made my own probes, I'll never buy another. ;)



So which style did you end up making? Just a coiled piece of wire or is it more complicated than this?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Noah
  • Noah's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Give code definitions with numbers!
More
3 years 9 months ago - 3 years 9 months ago #40288 by Noah
Check out the Scanner Danner affiliate Amazon page in the tools tab.
That's where I bought my low amp probe. It's the same as the one from AES Wave and the price is usually between $80-$90.

It doesn't fit around battery cables very well. I have a second Innova probe I got off the tool truck that isn't sensitive enough for things like fuel pump current ramp analysis, but is fine for relative compression.

"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"
Last edit: 3 years 9 months ago by Noah.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40342 by Tyler

AJeep18 wrote: So which style did you end up making? Just a coiled piece of wire or is it more complicated than this?


It's an idea I got from Ray Yergeau over at Diag.net. You disassemble a old Honda distributor and harvest the two-wire, VR position sensors inside. There's three total, for three separate probes. :cheer: I bought a 'reman' distributor off Ebay for $30.

Noah did a fantastic build using the same idea:

www.scannerdanner.com/forum/diagnostic-t...ary-probe.html#40315

Here's a couple examples on Toyota four-wire coils. First is a normal event at idle:



This had an oil fouled spark plug:



This had no spark due to a shorted secondary winding:

Attachments:
The following user(s) said Thank You: Noah

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40344 by AJeep18
So... as a noob can you explain to me the difference with the three patters? Ok how about I guess and you tell me if I am right :P. The first one is good obviously. The second one, I see that there is a lot less of a drop in the voltage and the second spike occurs much sooner than the good example. (what does this indicate?). The third on has the large spike, but no event following it.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40346 by AJeep18
So I scoped my first ignition coil (just using a handy-dandy alligator clip right now). This is on a 2012 Dodge Challenger. So what data and information can I gather from this? I am assuming it is a good coil since it runs fine... I just really don't know what I am looking for I guess. Also, since this car has two spark plugs per cylinder, does this change the waveform in any way?
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40350 by juergen.scholl
Congrats to your first coil oscilogramm 8-)

Not really too much detailled information in it yet, you got ~ 4 ms dwell time for coil charging and almost 2 ms of burntime. The dwell time is pretty standart and the burn time is at the higher end of normal.

An expert is someone who knows each time more on each time less, until he finally knows absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40358 by Matt T

AJeep18 wrote: Also, since this car has two spark plugs per cylinder, does this change the waveform in any way?


That change during the burn, about 1.2 ms in, might be the spark extinguishing on one of the plugs.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40359 by AJeep18
So how can I get more detail in it? Just by playing with the settings? What type of detail should I be looking for? Also what is a normal burn time, and what does a longer one indicate.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago - 3 years 9 months ago #40362 by juergen.scholl
A "normal" burn time would depend on the ignition system your working on...

A distributor system in good working condition with one coil will feature anything between 1.5 to 2 ms at idle, whereas a waste spark system may go well as low as 1ms and still be o.k. most of the COP systems again will hover around 1.5 ms

With burn times below 1 ms problems may start..... Less then .8 ms will result in misfires.

If the burn time is too high the resulting spark may be not hot enough to ignite the fuel mixture properly, more than 2 ms raises my suspicion with a given problem.

Secondary ignition waveforms , together with in cylinder pressure oscilograms, are the waveforms that reveil a wealth of information about an engine's working condition. Indeed, it's so much that we can't summarize it satisfactorily in a thread like this one...

I'll let you a link to what in my opinion is one the best introduction to the world of ignition analysis, hope you will enjoy it.


An expert is someone who knows each time more on each time less, until he finally knows absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
Last edit: 3 years 9 months ago by juergen.scholl.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Noah, Chad

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40363 by Tyler

AJeep18 wrote: So... as a noob can you explain to me the difference with the three patters? Ok how about I guess and you tell me if I am right :P. The first one is good obviously. The second one, I see that there is a lot less of a drop in the voltage and the second spike occurs much sooner than the good example. (what does this indicate?). The third on has the large spike, but no event following it.


Sorry, I didn't mean for that to turn into a secondary ignition lesson. :blush:

The second one definitely has a burn time issue, mostly because the gap of the plug is fouled with stuff that's not air or fuel. Everyone has different rules of thumb? I look for 1.0 to 1.5ms of burn time on most COPs.

You're right about the third, with no event. That's the clue that no spark is taking place, in the cylinder or otherwise. That same coil had a bad current ramp to go along with it:

Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Noah
  • Noah's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Give code definitions with numbers!
More
3 years 9 months ago #40364 by Noah
I went down the rabbit hole clicking links in this thread!
Between that and watching the video Juergen posted, (I've watched it 3 times already), good bye Sunday!

"Ground cannot be checked with a 10mm socket"

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
3 years 9 months ago #40375 by AJeep18
WOW! I had no idea that so much information could be gathered and analyzed from just one simple test... And that is just an introduction huh?!? Guess I have even more to learn than I thought! Thanks everyone for your help and input!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.290 seconds